and increasing school fund which ought never to be diverted to local or partial objects. We have a general interest, as has been remarked by a gentleman from Saratoga, in those exhaustless salt springs, which are a source of permanent and increasing revenue to our treasury. Their consumption is mostly at present confined to the people in the western and northern districts of the state. It is not to be concealed that the population of those districts already exceeds the other portions of the state, and that they will of course return a majority in both branches of the legislature. Suppose that the people of those sections should take it into their head to relieve themselves from the duty now imposed upon salt manufactured at the state springs ?-How many of their representatives would or could, long successfully resist their will?

Again-The state has a still greater, and, I might almost say, invaluable, interest in the future revenues to be derived from those great monuments of her pride and her wisdom, the western and northern canals. Suppose that the people of those districts should feel it to be for their particular interest to divert that revenue from the purpose to which it is very properly pledged, or after that pledge is redeemed to greatly diminish or entirely abolish the tolls, that their productions might pass upon them free? Is it certain that their representatives would withstand the pressure which might be made upon them for that object? Would it not be of vital consequence in the event, to the other sections of the state, that their interests should be guarded by a department who represented the whole state, was elected by no local views, and stood pledged to no narrow or partial objects? Will they feel that those interests are perfectly secure with a merely nominal control-a control over a bare majority of the legislature, acting under local views, and perhaps temporary excitements? This is no imaginary or highly improbable case, but one which may come home to the business and bosoms of a large portion of those who hear me, and of their inmediate constituents, and is submitted to the serious consideration of those representing the ancient and respectable county of Suffolk, and the other seaboard and southern districts of the state. I repeat, therefore, that for all practical purposes, I should prefer to take the reverse of the proposition of the gentleman from Montgomery, and leave all constitutional objections to be settled by judicial interposition; but prefer intrusting both powers in the first instance to the revisory power of the executive, subject to be overruled by two-thirds of both branches as recommended by the committee.

A few words only on the ground of precedent. Most of the projects which we have before this had pressed upon us, have been more or less sanctioned by some precedent of some state or government in their favour. The one now under consideration is sustained by no one relative in any government of the nation, or of the world. Let us not, for the sake of trying some new experiment, or adding some new check to the machinery, hazard ourselves upon a distinction never before made, or upon a project which the accumulated wisdom of our country never before dreamed of.

The motion of Mr. Dodge was lost.

The question was then taken on the substitute reported by the committee to the third article of the constitution, and it was carried in the affirmative 100 to 17, as follows:

AYES-Messrs. Bacon, Baker, Barlow, Beckwith, Birdseye, Breese, Briggs, Brinkerhoff, Brooks, Buel, Burroughs, Carpenter, Case, Child, D. Clark, R. Clarke, Clyde, Cramer, Day, Dubois, Duer, Dyckman, Eastwood, Edwards, Fairlie, Fenton, Ferris, Fish, Frost, Hallock, Hees, Hogeboom, Howe, Humphrey, Hunt, Hunting, Huntington, Hurd, Jansen, Jay, Jones, Kent, King, Knowles, Lansing, Lawrence, Lefferts, M'Call, Munro, Moore, Nelson, Paulding, Pitcher, Platt, Porter, Pumpelly, Radcliff, Reeve, Rhinelander, Rockwell, Rogers, Rose, Ross, Russel, Sage, Sanders, N. Sanford, Schenck, Seeley, Sharpe, I Smith, R. Smith, Spencer, Stagg, Starkweather, Steele, I. Southerland, Sylvester, Tallmadge, Ten Eyck, Townley, Tripp, Tuttle, Van Buren, Van Horne, Van Ness, J. R. Van Rensselaer, S. Van Rensselaer, Van Vechten, Verbryck, Ward, E. Webster, Wendover, Wheaton, E. Williums, N. Williams, Woods, Woodward, Yates, Young-100.

1

NOES-Messrs. Carver, Collins, Dodge, A. Livingston, P. R. Livingston, Millikin, Park, Pike, Richards, Root, R. Sanford, Swift, Taylor, Tompkins, Townsend, Wheeler, Wooster-17.

The committee of the whole then rose and reported the same to the Convention.

Adjourned.

MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 10, 1821.

Prayer by the Rev. Mr. DE WITT. The President took the chair at 10 o'clock, when the minutes of Saturday were read and approved.

THE LEGISLATIVE YEAR.

On motion of GEN. ROOT, the Convention resolved itself into a committee of the whole on the report of the committee to whom it was referred, to inquire into the expediency of establishing the commencement of the legislative year, and also whether any, and what alterations ought to be made in the term for which any elective officer may be elected, reported the following resolutionMr. Sharpe in the chair.

The report was read in the words following:

Resolved, That the following amendments, ought to be made to the constitu. tion of this state, viz :--

And be it further ordained by the people of this state, That the general election for governor, lieutenant-governor, senator and members of assembly, shall be held at such time, in the month of October, or November, as the legislature shall direct, and the persons so elected, shall, on the first day of January following, be entitled to the exercise of their respective functions in virtue of such election.

The governor and lieutenant-governor, shall be elected annually, and senators for three years.

MR. TOMPKINS moved to divide the subject, so as first to consider the proposed alteration of the term of holding the general election, and the commencement of the legislative year. Adopted.

MR. BRIGGS moved to strike out the words "October, or," for the purpose of fixing the time of holding the election in November.

GEN, ROOT preferred that the report should stand as it does; and let the people, through the legislature, fix the time of holding the election in October or November, at they please.

MR. BRIGGS thought the time too indefinite. November, he said, would be the most suitable time to hold the election, especially for the farmers. If we leave it discretionary which month to take of the two, we may as well leave it altogether so.

The motion of Mr. Briggs was lost.

MR. LANSING wished the phraseology of the report altered. He thought we had better preserve the words of the constitution--“ Ordain, determine, and declare in the name of the good people of this state."

GEN. ROOT preferred the language used by the committee in their report. The old constitution was made by the Convention and they of course used the language in the name of the people; but this is to be made by the people them

selves.

MR. FAIRLIE thought it an improper time to discuss the phraseology. That will be settled hereafter, when a committee will be appointed to put the whole into a proper shape.

MR. LANSING withdrew his motion.

CHIEF JUSTICE SPENCER spoke a few words in favour of the first part of the report of the committee. Too long a period now elapses between the election and the time of the meeting of the legislature; and circumstances may occur

in which it would be improper for a member elected in April to take his seat in January. It is a settled maxim, that a legislative body should meet as soon after the time of its being elected, as possible.

MR. CARVER moved to strike out the words "at such time in the month of October or November," and insert, "the last Tuesday in October."

MR. FAIRLIE thought this question had just been decided. The last Tuesday in October would be an inconvenient time, should the yellow fever prevail in the city of New-York. He inquired what would be the effect of this change, in regard to the choice of electors of president and vice-president?

GEN. ROOT said the Convention ought not to descend to legislative detail. For some time past the legislatures have been afraid to trust to the Convention; and now the Convention are afraid to trust to the legislature. As to the election of electors of president, he thought we ought not to interfere. He hoped the time was not far distant, when the people would have the right of choosing these electors, which has so long been usurped from them, restored.

The motion to strike out was lost, and the first part of the report of the committee carried unanimously.

GEN. ROOT then moved that the committee rise and report their agreement to the first proposition; for the purpose, when again in Convention, of moving to discharge the committee of the whole from the further consideration of the last part of the report, which relates to the term of service of the governor, lieutenant governor, and senators, with a view of referring the same to the committee of the whole, when on the report of the executive committee.

The motion was carried.

When the question on agreeing to the report of the committee of the whole, was put,

CHIEF JUSTICE SPENCER rose, and remarked, in substance, that he did not understand that the whole of the first paragraph of the report of the select committee, was adopted by the committee of the whole. He thought that the committee of the whole had agreed to no more than related to the time of holding the election; otherwise he should have proposed an amendment in regard to the present mode of canvassing the votes for governor and lieutenant governor. He thought the votes should be returned under seal to the secretary of state, who should deliver them over to the president of the senate, and they should be canvassed and declared in joint meeting of both houses of the legislature. The present method of canvassing he thought highly improper. Such an instance has never occurred in this state-but suppose there should be a tie in the votes of rival candidates. How should it be determined who should be the governor There were many other evils incident to the present system; and there was difficulty in making decisions, in consequence of misnomers, mis-spelling, &c. For these and other reasons, the report of the committee of the whole ought either to be amended, or again sent back to the committee of the whole.

MR. J. SUTHERLAND said there was great force in the remarks of the gentleman last up; but he thought there was no connexion between the subject brought forward by him, and the report of the committee. His proposition should be attended to elsewhere.

MR. VAN VECHTEN moved to amend by striking out the word "persons,” and inserting the words "members of the senate and assembly." The object was to have the term of service of the members of the legislature commence on the first of January, and to leave the term of service of the governor and lieutenant-governor to be fixed hereafter.

GEN. TALLMADGE moved that the Convention disagree to the report of the committee of the whole, for the purpose of referring the whole matter to the executive committee.

Some desultory conversation ensued, when Gen. Tallmadge withdrew his motion, and the motion of Mr. Van Vechten was lost.

MR. SWIFT moved to amend by striking out the "first day of January," and insert"first Monday of January." The official terms of the governor, &c. might commence on Sunday.

The President thought the amendment unnecessary. The official term of the governor had several times commenced on Sunday. This makes no dif ference.

GEN. ROOT said a few words in opposition; and the motion was withdrawn, The report of the committee of the whole was then agreed to by the Con vention.

On motion of GEN. ROOT, the committee of the whole were then discharged from the consideration of that part of the report of the select committee (relating to the annual election of governor and lieutenant-governor) and the same was referred to the executive committee: And the remaining part, (relating to the term of service of members of the senate) was ordered to lie on the table.

MR. SHELDON then called for the consideration of the amendments of the rules and orders of the Convention, reported by the committee on that subject on Friday.

The amendments were, to expunge the 15th rule, and insert the following :

15. All questions, whether in committee or in Convention, shall be put in the order they are moved, except that in filling up blanks, the largest sum and longest time shall be first put.

And to add as rule 22d, the following:

22d. When a question is under debate, no motion shall be received, unless to amend it, to commit it, to postpone it to a day certain, for the previous ques tion, or to adjourn.

These amendments were adopted.

THE EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.

On motion of CHIEF JUSTICE SPENCER, the Convention then resolved itself into a committee of the whole, on the report of the committee who were directed to enquire whether any, and if any, what alterations are necessary to be made, in that part of the constitution of this state, which relates to the executive department-Mr. Radcliff in the chair.

The report of the committee, (for which vide proceedings of Friday, page 86,) having been read—

CHIEF JUSTICE SPENCER moved an amendment as follows:

The returns of every election for governor and lieutenant-governor, or lieutenant-governor only, shall be sealed up and transmitted to the secretary of state, by the clerks of the several counties, directed to the lieutenant-governor, or president of the senate. The secretary shall, on the first day of the succeeding session of the legislature, deliver the said returns to the lieutenant-governor, or president of the senate, who shall open and publish the same, in presence of the senate and assembly, in joint meeting. The person having the highest number of votes for go. vernor, shall be governor; and the person having the highest number of votes for lieutenant-governor, shall be lieutenant-governor; but if two or more shall be equal, and highest in votes, for governor, one of them shall be chosen by joint ballot of both houses; and if two or more shall be equal, and highest in votes for lieutenant-governor, one of them shall, in like manner, be chosen lieutenant-governor. Contested elections for governor or lieutenant-governor, shall be determined by both houses of the legislature, in such manner as shall be determined by law.

The Chief Justice observed, that the great power of deciding whether the governor was duly qualified to accept of the office, on account of his age, residence, and citizenship, should be referred to the immediate representatives of the people. Mr. S. said he did not wish to revive any feelings which were now slumbering in oblivion; but if it were necessary to enforce the principles contained in his amendment, he could refer to a period when a provision of this nature would have been important. The transaction to which he alluded was near shaking the state to its centre. There ought to be a right of enquiring into the qualifications of a governor elect. It had been said by a gentleman from Schoharie, (Mr. Sutherland) that the oath would be a sufficient guarantee. But others were interested in that question; and it ought not to be con

clusive upon the people. He would fix the time of the session of the legisla ture in the manner that congress has fixed it; and the governor should enter upon the duties of his office at some convenient time after the meeting of the legislature.

MR. SHELDON asked if the amendment proposed was not incongruous with the report of the committee?

The CHIEF JUSTICE Conceived not.

The question was taken on the amendment, and it was adopted-with an understanding, however, that the amendment should be printed, and reconsidered afterwards, if gentlemen should wish to take that course.

MR. TOMPKINS moved an amendment in the second section, which related to pardons, so as to prevent the executive from extending pardons in cases of impeachment.

CHIEF JUSTICE SPENCER said that impeachment does not imply the conviction of a crime in the legal sense. After a public officer has been impeached,

he is liable to indictment if the offence is criminal.

MR. TOMPKINS assented to the correctness of the remark made by the gentleman from Albany. He thought, however, that in making a constitution, it was expedient, to make the instrument clear and explicit, and leave nothing to implication.

MR. KING thought that constitutions should be explicit; and moved an amendment in the phraseology, that he thought would meet the views of all parties. The suggestion was assented to.

MR. VAN VECHTEN read a clause from the constitution, and explained it. He assented to the remark of Mr. Spencer, that a person after impeachment was indictable and punishable, after removal from office.

MR. KING said that crimes of this kind were cognizable in two ways-first by impeachment, which goes to a removal from office, and future disqualification. Secondly, by indictment and conviction in courts of law. The governor ought not to have the power of pardoning in such cases. The president of the United States has not that power, and it is the only exception in the constitution, which denies to the president the right of pardoning.

Messrs. SPENCER and VAN VECHTEN both disclaimed having advocated the doctrine of giving the executive the power to pardon in such cases.

MR. N. WILLIAMS was in favour of the amendment, and strongly urged the necessity of adopting it, from the circumstance that distinguished gentlemen disagree as to the true construction of the constitution. We did not come here to settle nice technicalities, but to amend the constitution so that all may understand it.

The amendment proposed by Mr. Tompkins, was adopted.

MR. RUSSELL moved to amend this part of the report by inserting after the word" reprieve," the words " or commute the punishment." The object was to give the legislature the power to commute punishment-this power had formerly been questioned, particularly in the case of Stephen Arnold, twelve or fifteen years ago. Adopted.

MR. TOMPKINS moved another amendment, authorising the governor to require the judiciary to report all the convictions with the minutes of, and that they be laid before the legislature.

CHIEF JUSTICE SPENCER Said that the judges commonly submitted the minutes of testimony to the governor when pardons were solicited.

MR. VAN BUREN thought such reports would be voluminous, without much benefit.

MR. TOMPKINS explained and pointed out the inconveniences of the present practice, and observed, that under a new and different organization of the judiciary, the remote residence might render it more exceptionable.

MR. VAN BUREN thought it was proper to strike out of the report that part which requi es the governor to report to the legislature all the cases in which pardons have been granted, and the grounds upon which he proceeded; and therefore proposed to divide the question on the amendment offered by Mr. T. so as to have it first taken on striking out.