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Mr. CASE. If there are no further questions I think we should proceed with the hearings now.

Mr. NORRELL. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make this brief statement: As a member of the Interior Department Appropriation Committee, the Fish and Wildlife Service appears before us each year. There is no argument that if we construct the dams and bar the salmon runs that the Government ought to provide some method by which they can get down to the ocean and when they get ready to go back where they spawn, they can do so.

Provision has been made at Bonneville to accommodate the salmon; they have concrete steps to go up those mountains, so to speak. But it is absolutely pitiful to stand there and watch the salmon at Grand Coulee exert such desperate effort to climb those concrete steps, and have to go back down the river where they came from.

We ought to leave those streams as near like we found them as is possible, and there is not any argument about that, as I see it.

The only deplorable situation is that the Interior Department is not charging enough for the power and reclamation benefits to pay for these projects.

Mr. SCRIVNER. That is exactly the point I was trying to make.

Mr. NORRELL. And I agree with you. This is one of the most worthy projects we can possibly have, saving the salmon industry of the West. There would be no argument about the funds required, Mr. Day, to meet the needs, if the projects can be placed on a selfsustaining basis. That is the deplorable and crying situation that we have in the West. We are favorable, I know I am, so far as the projects are concerned; I want to leave the salmon just like we found them, but I want the projects to pay for themselves, and I am sure you agree with me.

Mr. Day. Yes.

Mr. Case. Mr. Scrivner, after looking at some of the previous testimoney taken by this committee, has pointed out one statement by General Wheeler which I think should be included in the record. General Wheeler said:

The Federal Wildlife people believe it will be necessary to provide additional spawning ground below McNary Dam to replenish the loss of salmon which may be incurred due to the operation of McVary Dam. They justified that amount before the Bureau of the Budget, and I understand that they are prepared to come before your committee to justify it also.

Mr. Engel, the chairman, subsequently said:

I am for wildlife preservation, but I think that is for the Interior Department to handle.

General Wheeler then said:

The law which was passed just this last year provided that funds for these studies must come from the appropriations that build the structures In other words, it must come from the flood-control appropriation.

Mr. ENGEL. We will see what they have to say tomorrow.

At least we did have some discussion with the Chief of Engineers that the appropriation must come from the appropriation that builds the structure.

Mr. TIBBOTT. May I ask one further question? Mr. Day, I understand that there are some additional dams to be built between McNary Dam and Bonneville. Will they interfere to any great extent with your proposed program as far as new spawning grounds are concerned?

Mr. Day. The Dalles may, but we are quite hopeful that that situation can be handled. We do not know. "The Dalles is probably the most worrisome of any.

Mr. TIBBOTT. What is the height of The Dalles?
Mr. DAY. 90 feet.

ESTIMATES FOR SURVEYS AND INVESTIGATIONS

May I say that there are two other items, one for $100,000, and $40,000 of this $1,490,000 is for general surveys and investigations in line with the amended Coordination Act which is included in the War Department program to be transferred to the Fish and Wildlife Service for that purpose. That is similar to the appropriations made to the Bureau of Reclamation and transferred for studies under the amended Coordination Act. That is also included in these two items.

Mr. Case. Had you concluded your general statement, Mr. Day? Mr. Day. Yes, sir.

DETAIL OF ESTIMATES FOR PROGRAM IN 1949

Mr. CASE. Specifically how much money are you asking for?

Mr. Day. We are asking for $1,490,000, and in addition $100,000. Of the $1,490,000, $40,000 is to be used for general wildlife studies and

surveys on other projects than the lower Columbia. Mr. CASE. All in connection with the Corps of Engineers? Mr. Day. Yes; all connected with Corps of Engineers projects. Jr. CASE. What, specifically, are you going to do with this $1,490,000?

Mr. Day. $40,000 for general Corps of Engineers projects. The $1,450,000 would be spent as follows: $400,000 for stream improvements; $185,000 for the improvement of the Spring Creek hatchery, in the State of Washington, a Federal hatchery; $185,000 for the improvement of the Carson hatchery, a Federal hatchery in the State of Washington; $120,000 for general plans and surveys.

The sum of $340,000 for the Klickitat hatchery to be constructed by the State of Washington; $175,000 for the Sandy River hatchery, a State hatchery in the State of Oregon, and $45,000 for the Herman Creek hatchery in Oregon. That is $1,450,000.

Mr. CASE. Do you have copies of that detailed statement for members of the Committee?

Mr. Day. The budget green sheet shows considerable detail. Mr. SCRIVNER. Where are those hatcheries, and where would the propagation be in relation to the proposed Dalles Dam? Will that be below The Dalles, or above The Dalles?

Mr. Day. These hatcheries are located below The Dalles.

Mr. SCRIVNER. So that if the Dalles Dam is built you will not be coming in with the same problem you have now, and then starting something below The Dalles.

Mr. Day. No; the hatchery program is below The Dalles, and much of the river rehabilitation is below The Dalles.

(The following was submitted later:) One State of Oregon hatchery on the John Day River is planned above The Dalles.)

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Mr. CASE. We will probably want to take up each one of these activities in detail, but let us have a break-down now, or can you place this table of obligation by objects in the record.

Mr. Day. Yes, sir.
(The matter referred to is as follows:)

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Rivers and harbors, Department of the Army (transfer to Interior; Fish and Wildlife

Service), 1949

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up each one c:1 Rivers and harbors, Department of the Army (transfer to Interior, Fish and Wildlife own Dow, TE

Service), 1949--Continued 'ecord.

Obligations

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Rivers and harbors, Department of the Army (transfer to Interior, Fish and Wildlife

Service), 1949Continued

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