Mr. ENGEL. You are moving the gates 200 feet north, at a cost of $3,800?

Major KIRK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCRIVNER. Let us go back to this water system. I do not like to harp on it, but the inference was left that water system was to go into the filled area, and the justification on page 45 does not seem to bear that out. That statement says:

The present water system does not permit watering all areas of the cemetery. It is proposed to install a watering system which will permit watering all areas.

So it must anticipate more than just this filled section.
Major KIRK. No, sir; that is the only area.

Mr. SCRIVNER. That is not what the justification says.

Colonel MARSHALL. The word "developed" should be inserted

there.

Mr. SCRIVNER. Where?

Colonel MARSHALL. Where it says "all areas," it should say "all developed areas." This is for the lawns in the developed areas.

Mr. SCRIVNER. But you do anticipate some watering system in other areas than that which you propose to fill 5 feet?

Colonel MARSHALL. That is within the developed area.

Mr. SCRIVNER. I know it is within the developed area, but the inference was left here that this watering system was to take care of that filled area.

Major KIRK. That is correct.

Mr. SCRIVNER. But it is going to take care of some more, too, is it

not?

Major KIRK. There will be the part of the area from which we are going to take the soil and move it over there. In other words, in the eastern section of this area here [indicating] is where the fill is, which we are going to move over into the western section, in order to bring that up to grade.

Mr. SCRIVNER. In other words, that watering system is sufficient for the presently developed area?

Major KIRK. Yes, sir; for the eastern section of the cemetery.

Mr. SCRIVNER. That makes the statement on the bottom of page 45 erroneous, where you say "It is proposed to install a watering system which will permit watering all areas." It does not say here "watering all areas developed in the cemetery." It cannot be both black and white.

Colonel MARSHALL. I see your point. I am trying to figure it out. Mr. SCRIVNER. So am I.

Colonel MARSHALL. When we get through, the present watering system will include the entire cemetery.

Mr. SCRIVNER. I still cannot square that with this statement that you have in the justification, where you say: "The present water system does not permit watering all areas of the cemetery."

Colonel MARSHALL. That is right; because the present watering system is only in the eastern part.

Mr. SCRIVNER. But you just now say it is sufficient, but you want to add over here.

Colonel MARSHALL. This area is to be regraded and the watering system put in there.

70546-48- -5

Mr. SCRIVNER. If you had said "extension of the watering system to the new area," I could see your point.

Colonel MARSHALL. The system asked for is for the new area.

Mr. ENGEL. The next item, under Little Rock, is roads, curbs, gutters, and walks, $69,200. That is for the new area?

Major KIRK. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. ENGEL. The next item is for topsoiling, humus, seeding, landscaping, and planting, $27,450.

Major KIRK. That is for the west end.

Mr. ENGEL. How many acres in the west end?

Major KIRK. Four acres.

Mr. ENGEL. That is about $6,600 an acre.

Colonel MARSHALL. That is for the moving of the dirt in there.

Mr. ENGEL. No; it is for topsoiling, humus, seeding, landscaping, and planting.

Major KIRK. That is not topsoiling.

Mr. SCRIVNER. That is where you are going to take the dirt off and move it into some other area?

Major KIRK. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCRIVNER. And after taking the dirt off to make the fill, you have to put new topsoil on?

Major KIRK. There is practically no topsoil on there.

Mr. SCRIVNER. Well, at least you have to put it on?

Major KIRK. Yes, sir.

Mr. ENGEL. Then you have, under "Topsoiling, continued," "Topsoiling, assumed 6-inch depth over entire area of 3,736 cubic yards, at $4."

Major KIRK. Yes, sir.

Mr. ENGEL. How can you topsoil over 3,700 cubic yards?

General LARKIN. No; that is "over the entire area", 3,736 cubic yards.

Mr. ENGEL. That is $15,050 for topsoiling?

General LARKIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ENGEL. Then for fine grading, fertilizing, seeding, placing topsoil, raking, rolling, and so forth, 22,700 square yards, at 50 cents, $11,350; and for procurement and planting of trees and shrubs, $1,050; and miscellaneous items, $14,180.

Just what are those miscellaneous items there?

Colonel MARSHALL. That is approximately 10 percent to cover the items I discussed in the original discussion of topographical surveys, planning, etc.

Mr. ENGEL. That is really overhead?

Colonel MARSHALL. That is overhead; yes, sir.

PORT HUDSON NATIONAL CEMETERY, LA.

Mr. ENGEL. The next is Port Hudson National Cemetery, "Addition to utility building with apron, walks, and drainage, $8,200." That is itemized under construction of building and the walks, making up $8,200. Then there are miscellaneous items and contingencies, $820, or a total for the Port Hudson National Cemetery of $9,020.

FORT SNELLING NATIONAL CEMETERY, MINN.

Mr. ENGEL. The next is Fort Snelling National Cemetery, Minnesota, "Relocation and extension of fences, $9,500." You say the cemetery has an area of 178.56 acres.

Then you want funds for the development of additional grave sites at this cemetery as authorized by the Eightieth Congress, and $42,400 for topsoiling, fertilizing, and seeding.

Mr. CASE. What do these proposed improvements mean as far as increasing the capacity of the usable portion of the cemetery is concerned?

Major KIRK. We are now burying in the southern part of the cemetery, in sections A, B, and C, and we will during the latter part of this year start moving into sections D, E, and F. It is sections D, E, and F which we want to develop.

Mr. CASE. What does that mean in terms of the number of graves? Major KIRK. That is approximately 40 acres, at 400 per acre would be 16,000 grave sites, approximately.

Mr. CASE. Are you still adhering to the idea you are going to make Fort Snelling serve a whole group of States?

Major KIRK. That is the only one up there that we have in that area. The closest other one would be Fort Meade, S. Dak.

Colonel GAGNE. This request is to finish off the work we asked for last year.

Mr. CASE. That is, you are not extending the area?

Colonel GAGNE. No, sir; this is just to finish off the area we requested last year.

Mr. CASE. I have considerable sympathy with the development of national cemeteries and think there should be a proper one at Fort Snelling. My grandfather was mustered into the Civil War at Fort Snelling, and my associations are up in that territory. Still, I do not think the cemetery should be developed to the extent of 178 acres at Fort Snelling to the exclusion of the proper interests of the other States in the Northwest-Wisconsin, Iowa, or the other surrounding States.

This fence is not to fence in the whole 170 acres, is it?
Colonel GAGNE. No, sir; it is just a temporary fence.

Major KIRK. The permanent fence will extent to this point [indicating]. We have a permanent fence in the first group I mentioned, sections A, B, and C, up to this point [indicating], and down to where we have enclosed the new sections D, E, and F on each side except at the western end, which will only be a temporary fence so that we can keep moving that back.

Mr. CASE. How many graves are there at Fort Snelling now? Colonel HOLLOWAY. As of the 30th of June, there were 3,752. Mr. CASE. And the area you are now developing will provide for 16,000?

Major KIRK. Approximately; sometimes we get 200, sometimes 300, per acre. It depends on how much we can get.

General HORKAN. It covers one of the biggest areas served by any cemeteries we have.

Mr. CASE. You mean for new burials?

General HORKAN. That is right.

Mr. CASE. How many were buried there last year?

Colonel HOLLOWAY. There were 513 buried last year. The burial rate is climbing rapidly, because that is one of the 3 major cemeteries in which World War II dead are being interred.

Major KIRK. They are burying now at the rate of approximately 100 a month. We used 93 more sites during November, not including the Reserves. Including the Reserves, we had 192 burials in 1 month. Mr. CASE. The funds you are requesting for topsoiling, fertilizing, seeding, are to serve how many acres?

Major KIRK. 35 to 40 acres.

Mr. CASE. Will you get all of the topsoiling and seeding done on 40 acres for $43,000?

Colonel GAGNE. This is to finish off what we did last year.

(After discussion off the record.)

Mr. CASE. Even if you bury at the rate of 100 a month
Major KIRK. It is actually 130 per month.

Mr. CASE. Three or four acres would take care of a year at the peak demand, and I do not know why you should develop 40 acres. Major KIRK. Our estimates show it will increase at the rate of 10 percent per year after this year. In other words, we have 136 this year; next year we will have 10 percent added on to that; and the next year we will have another 10 percent.

General LARKIN. Another factor is that we have not reached the peak yet of bringing back World War II dead.

Mr. CASE. I know; but you expect to reach that in the next 3, 4, or 5 years, do you not?

General LARKIN. That is right.

Mr. CASE. Are you expecting to take over all of the burials here from the veterans' hospitals?

Colonel GAGNE. We are now.

Mr. CASE. They are burying where they have cemeteries in connection with the hospitals, are they not?

Colonel GAGNE. They are in some cases.

Colonel MARSHALL. For instance, at New York, we are burying them all.

Mr. CASE. But we are talking of Fort Snelling now.

In

Major KIRK. We do get quite a few of their burials; yes, sir. addition to the 136 actual burials a month, we are getting requests at the rate of 96 per month over and above that for interments of World War II. So that you can now see we are having approximately 236 per month of interments.

Mr. CASE. At Fort Snelling?

Major KIRK. Yes, sir. During the month of November alone, we had 96, and we had requested interments of 680 during 1 month, so that we can say over 200 per month.

Mr. KERR. How much did you get last year for topsoiling, fertilizing, and seeding at Fort Snelling?

Colonel MARSHALL. $8,900.

Mr. KERR. And you want $42,000 now?

Colonel MARSHALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCRIVNER. $28,000 just for topsoiling?
Colonel MARSHALL. That is right.

ADVISABILITY OF CONSTRUCTING NEW CEMETERY AT GUAM

Mr. CASE. With respect to the Guam situation, I notice in looking ahead in the justifications that you have the details there of $800,000 or $900,000 for developing this Guam cemetery. I think we ought to face the situation we have there, and I will tell you how I personally feel about it.

I feel if we are going to put $1,000,000 in the development of a cemetery in the Pacific, as a sort of Pacific cemetery, it ought not to be on Guam. I think it ought to be on one of the islands of Hawaii, and I think that for these reasons: First of all, you have more land, or there is more of a land mass in the Hawaiian group than on Guam. The second thing is that Hawaii is almost 4,000 miles nearer the mainland of the United States, and to the people who go from the continental United States out there to visit the graves of their next of kin, Hawaii symbolizes to them the war in the Pacific just as much as Guam does, if not more so. The third thing is that when the time comes that these pilgrimages are made by the next of kin, if they go to Guam, they are going to come back feeling they have been at a pretty dreary, hot, desolate place, and there won't be too much satisfaction either at the time they are there or in thinking about it afterwards; whereas Hawaii has one of the nicest climates in the world, and persons who would go there would come back with some sense of consolation, because it is a beautiful country; the climate is nice; and they would carry away that memory.

The fourth thing is that if we get in another war sometime, Guam is bound to be a primary military target if the war involves the Pacific, and with the mass of installations there of navy yards, air strips, and what-not, any place you would select on Guam for a cemetery, as was brought out by Mr. Scrivner this morning, would inadvertently become a target-not an intentional target, but Guam would be a place where explosives would be dropped, or falling planes might drop, and one thing and another.

In other words, you are bound to desecrate the cemetery on Guam; whereas there ought to be places on some of the islands around Hawaii where a cemetery site could be developed that would not be a military target either accidentally or intentionally.

So, for all of those reasons, I would like to see you come in here with some estimate of what you could do in the way of developing a Pacific cemetery on Hawaii rather than on Guam.

General LARKIN. Of course, we do plan, as you know, to have a cemetery on Hawaii.

Mr. CASE. I know you do, and I do not know why that should not be developed rather than putting this thing that much further out. Mr. ENGEL. Of course, I think this illustrates the danger of having the War Department and some outside board which is not in contact with the people back home designating, without congressional action, the places where these cemeteries are to go. There has been no act passed authorizing the Guam cemetery, has there?

General LARKIN. No.

Mr. ENGEL. This Guam cemetery is being authorized by the Battle Monuments Commission, and the War Department, Navy, and Air? General LARKIN. Well, it is not being authorized. Mr. ENGEL. But they are designating it?