Colonel MARSHALL. After the burials are made?

Mr. KERR. Yes. Of course, this is done to meet the criticism that might arise from those who are living.

General LARKIN. If we should bury them in unfinished ground. General HORKAN. The criticism would arise if they were brought back and buried in another less attractive place in the cemetery.

Mr. KERR. Of course, I can get your viewpoint, but it just impresses me that where you have a piece of property that will take 3 or 4 years to complete it is not necessary to come in and take all of the funds out of the Treasury. I think you need to give some consideration to that, when you are asking for appropriations. Of course the chairman and the other members of the committee all want to do what needs to be done.

General LARKIN. I appreciate that, Judge Kerr.

Mr. KERR. But when you come in with a request for $115,000 in order to fertilize the ground and plant trees on a plot of ground that will not be completed within 1 year it does seem to me that it is not necessary, and that the planting of trees and fertilizing and putting on topsoil could be done over a period of years and it would be much easier to handle it that way than trying to do it all at once when prices are so high. That is just my own personal viewpoint.

General HORKAN. We have tried to keep these cemeteries in the condition which we think that the Congress and the people want them for the burial of the war dead there. We feel that they should be kept up to a certain standard that has been developed for that purpose.

Mr. KERR. I think we all want to do that, but it could be done over a period of time when labor particularly is not so high as it is now, maybe higher than it will be in 2 or 3 years from now.

General HORKAN. Of course, we have bodies coming back now. Mr. KERR. I know something about some of these national cemeteries.

General LARKIN. Of course, the next of kin express a choice, Judge Kerr, as to where they wish to have their boys buried. San Francisco, of course, is the center of a large population on the Pacific

coast.

Mr. KERR. I realize that.

Mr. ENGEL. What percentage is added to these costs for Army overhead?

Colonel MARSHALL. Between 10 and 15 percent. As you will note in the $63,000 project the overhead costs are $5,700, which includes the initial steps; it includes the initial survey, and detailed planning.

Mr. ENGEL. What page are you referring to now?

Colonel MARSHALL. Page 59. It includes the detailed planning which is necessary before you can let a contract, together with the general administration of the project.

Mr. ENGEL. That is under miscellaneous.

Colonel MARSHALL. It is broken down separately.

Mr. ENGEL. Under miscellaneous is overhead?

Colonel MARSHALL. That is right.

Mr. ENGEL. And there is no other overhead of any kind in the other items outside of miscellaneous?

Colonel MARSHALL. That is correct. It has been separated for that purpose in order to show the committee what the charge is.

ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY, VA.

Mr. ENGEL. The next is for the National Arlington Cemetery. Colonel MARSHALL. The request for the Arlington National Cemetery totals $63,140.

This item involves an access road which is needed to that part of sections 17, 18, and 19 adjacent to the boundary wall, on the west side of the cemetery, to which there are no access roads at the present time. That item totals $45,000.

In addition, an access road to sections 4 and 34, to another area in Arlington Cemetery to which there are no access roads, and that item totals $12,400.

The engineering cost is $5,740, or a total for Arlington National Cemetery of $63,140.

Mr. ENGEL. On this first item on page 58 you have 6,930 square yards, concrete base, bituminous surface, including grading, at $4.70 per yard for an 18-foot-wide road.

Colonel MARSHALL. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. That would be about 1,300 yards long, would it not?
Colonel MARSHALL. How long is that roadway, Major Kirk?
Mr. ENGEL. About 1,300 yards.

Major KIRK. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. About 3,500 feet.

General LARKIN. That is about two-thirds of a mile.

Mr. ENGEL. That would be at the rate of about $40,000 per mile. On the other site you have a 21-foot-wide road involving 1,910 square yards, concrete base, bituminous surface, including grading, for the same thing. That would be about how much?

General HORKAN. About 800 linear feet.

Mr. ENGEL. That would be about a sixth or a seventh of a mile. How does that compare with the costs of similar road improvement the city of Washington?

Mr. ROCHELLE. There are no road costs comparable in the city of Washington.

Mr. ENGEL. The city of Washington has the highest prices of any place in the country.

Mr. ROCHELLE. Yes; but they are not building new roads; they resurface roads. However to compare it with highways generally it would be about $100,000 a mile.

Mr. ENGEL. That depends upon the grading, of course.

Mr. ROCHELLE. It is estimated, as shown in the fiscal year 1949 budget-18-foot road, 6-inch concrete base, bituminous surface, concrete curb and gutter, and necessary drainage-that the cost will be $6.49 per square yard.

In comparing the above with construction work in the District of Columbia, the following information has been submitted from the Public Roads Administration:

(a) A light-duty road with 6-inch gravel base, bituminous surface, concrete curb and gutter, and drainage, will cost $6.09 per square yard.

(b) A heavy-duty road, which is comparable to the one to be constructed in Arlington, as referred to in paragraph 1 above-21-foot heavy-duty road, 6-inch concrete base, bituminous topping, concrete curbs and gutters, and drainage--will cost $7.21 per square yard.

ALEXANDRIA NATIONAL CEMETERY, VA.

Mr. ENGEL. The next item is for the Alexandria National Cemetery.

Colonel MARSHALL. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. The amount requested is $2,500.

Colonel MARSHALL. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. That is just for meter box and various electrical equipment?

Colonel MARSHALL. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. At the present time there is no watering system installed at this cemetery?

Colone MARSHALL. That is right.

Mr. ENGEL. How large is that cemetery?
Colonel HOLLOWAY. 5.5 acres.

There are 3,589 burials and at

the present time 645 available grave sites.

Mr. ENGEL. We will pass over for the time being the item for Guam and take up the next cemetery.

FORT ROSECRANS NATIONAL CEMETERY, CALIF.

Colonel MARSHALL. The next item is for the extension of the cemetery at Fort Rosecrans, Calif., found on page 65 of the justifications. This is for the extension of the cemetery.

This cemetery was filled, and demand for space necessitated the acquisition of an additional 9 acres of land, which acreage was obtained from the Navy without reimbursement.

The cost of the initial development, in order to provide immediate burial for those that request the burials in this cemetery, amounts to $52,595, as detailed out on the list shown on page 67.

Mr. ENGEL. This $52,595 is for Fort Rosecrans, Calif., National Cemetery?

Colonel MARSHALL. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. IS Fort Rosecrans a town or a regular fort?

Colonel GAGNE. It is at San Diego.

Mr. ENGEL. How many acres in that cemetery now?

Colonel MARSHALL. There are 8 acres, I believe, and this would

extend the cemetery with the donation of the 9 additional acres.

Mr. ENGEL. How many graves are in those 8 acres?

Colonel HOLLOWAY. 3,333.

Mr. ENGEL. What is the present occupancy?

Colonel HOLLOWAY. As of August there were 3,330.

Mr. ENGEL. Three vacant graves?

Colonel HOLLOWAY. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. How many acres in that particular cemetery?

Colonel MARSHALL. The 9 acres we have acquired will provide for approximately 2,500 to 3,000 sites.

Mr. ENGEL. How long will that provide for graves?

Colonel HOLLOWAY. The War Department anticipates about 1,800 burials there, at a rate of about 600 a year.

Mr. ENGEL. So you will have graves for how long?

Colonel MARSHALL. That would be about 3 years.

Mr. ENGEL. Are you building a fence around the cemetery?
General HORKAN. NO.

Mr. ENGEL. Is there a wall there?

Colonel MARSHALL. There is a wall proposed in the last item.

Mr. ENGEL. It just seems to me again that where you are getting space to meet requirements for only about 3 years' time, and when you will have to come back at some later time, that you would not be warranted in building a wall around it.

Colonel MARSHALL. The difficulty, Mr. Chairman, is to provide for any sound program for more than 3 to 5 years. We have no additional land there, therefore we would have to put a fence in.

Mr. ENGEL. Could you not put in a temporary fence?
Colonel MARSHALL. If it were desired, that could be done.

Mr. ENGEL. I do not mean a temporary fence costing $3 a foot. Is there other land available next to this cemetery?

Colonel GAGNE. Just north and south-I think that is shown on the plat.

Major KIRK. The addition to the present cemetery will extend out north of the present cemetery [indicating].

From this plat you can note about where the extension will be and the limitation of the north section and where we are asking for this 9-acre development.

We cannot go any farther because of the contour of the land; we cannot extend in this direction [indicating].

Mr. ENGEL. Why?

Major KIRK. Because of the precipice down to the sea.

Mr. ENGEL. Why do you want to put a fence around it on the side of the precipice?

Major KIRK. That would have to be done to protect it.

Mr. ENGEL. The bank or the precipice is on the outside toward the sea.

Major KIRK. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. Why fence in that part of the land?

Major KIRK. Because it goes right down to the sea, and we must protect the graves in the cemetery; it drops right off toward the sea. Mr. ENGEL. Where is the sea in relation to this plat?

Major KIRK. The sea is over here [indicating].

Mr. ENGEL. This does not go down anywhere near the sea?

Major KIRK. This is a precipice all the way down to the sea, where the black line is shown.

Mr. ENGEL. Is this the entire acreage shown on this plat?

Major KIRK. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. How much of this are you going to use?

Major KIRK. We are going to use the whole of it.

Mr. ENGEL. For graves?

Major KIRK. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. I thought you said that what you were going to use was a part of the 8 acres for graves.

Colonel MARSHALL. But we can extend beyond that.

Mr. ENGEL. You can extend beyond that?

Colonel MARSHALL. Yes; we can extend beyond that 8 acres.

Mr. ENGEL. Is there any further extension possible, after you get that number of graves?

Colonel KIRK. Toward the south we can go in this direction [indicating]. As the cemetery is laid out, this is the north and this the south indicating], but we cannot extend down beyond the contour of the land here [indicating].

Mr. ENGEL. Why do you have to have an extension in that area? Why not close up the cemetery that is now already filled, put a man in charge, and select another location and not have all of these limitations?

General HORKAN. Of course, that is the only cemetery in the area, and the burials for quite a number of bodies are waiting to get into that cemetery, when we complete development of this plan.

Mr. ENGEL. I understand that; but the old cemetery is filled; you have only a few graves left.

General HORKAN. Yes.

Mr. ENGEL. And when you finish this cemetery and complete these burials, you will not have any more space left, and you are going to have to expand. Now why not leave that cemetery as a finished cemetery and go out and locate another one where you will have plenty of land available, large enough to meet future needs?

General LARKIN. We need to develop these additional acres now. Mr. ENGEL. You need to develop these 9 acres now, but 3 years from now you may need additional acreage.

General HORKAN. A bill passed the Congress last session authorizing the extension of this cemetery, the reason being that the next cemetery to the north was around San Francisco.

Mr. ENGEL. How far is that?

General HORKAN. 500 or 600 miles.

Mr. ENGEL. Can you not get some other land where you can provide for the future needs of a national cemetery? It seems to me you ought to have a place where you can get, say, 30 or 40 acres available. General HORKAN. But we do have this land now, and we can use this land.

Mr. ENGEL. And this is what you got from the Navy.

General HORKAN. Yes; we can use this land, and we would waste all of this land if we closed this cemetery at a time when we require space for a number of burials there.

This is one of the critical cemeteries; we have people waiting at distribution centers for this to be made ready. This is one of the critical spots.

Mr. ENGEL. But in about 3 years you will be back wanting funds to develop a further acreage.

General HORKAN. We can extend south.

Mr. ENGEL. But after you have extended as far south as you can go, you will have to go some other place.

General HORKAN. We may have to come in and ask for another cemetery in that area.

Mr. ENGEL. About how many of the servicemen were from the San Diego area who will want to be buried in that area?

Colonel MARSHALL. We do not know.

Mr. ENGEL. And you plan to expend how much for the extension of this cemetery?

Colonel MARSHALL. $52,595.

Mr. ENGEL. It seems to me that it would have been a much better plan for you to go out where you could get 60 acres and develop it now to the extent needed and have land enough to take care of future needs. However, that is my view. Are there any further questions?