A. I did make a short address to each section of them. I sent for the officers in charge and told them I would like to see the clerks. Q. Was that within three days of the time you were appointed Secretary of War ad interim? A. It was between the time I was reinstated as Adjutant General and the time I was appointed Secretary of War; I do not recollect what particular day. Mr. Manager BUTLER, (to the counsel for the respondent.) The witness is yours, gentlemen. Mr. STANBERY. We will ask some questions. Mr. HENDERSON. Mr. President, I move that the Senate sitting as a court do now adjourn. The motion was agreed to; and the Senate sitting for the trial of the impeachment adjourned. SATURDAY, April 11, 1868. The Chief Justice of the United States entered the Senate chamber at 12 o'clock and five minutes p. m., and took the chair. The usual proclamation having been made by the Sergeant-at-arms, The managers of the impeachment on the part of the House of Representatives appeared and took the seats assigned them. The counsel for the respondent also appeared and took their seats, The presence of the House of Representatives was next announced, and the members of the House, as in Committee of the Whole, headed by Mr. E. B. Washburne, the chairman of that committee, and accompanied by the Speaker and clerk, entered the Senate chamber and were conducted to the seats provided for them. The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Secretary will read the minutes of the last day's proceedings. The Secretary read the journal of yesterday's proceedings of the Senate sitting for the trial of the impeachment. The CHIEF JUSTICE. Gentlemen of counsel for the President, you will proceed with your evidence. Mr. Manager BINGHAM. Mr. President, before the counsel for the accused proceed, I desire to say that the managers wish to move the Senate for such change of rule twenty-one of the proceedings in this trial as will allow the managers and the counsel for the President to be heard on the final argument, subject to the provision of the rule as it stands that the argument shall be opened and closed by the managers on the part of the House. Mr. SHERMAN. I should like to have the proposition repeated. I could not hear it distinetly. The CHIEF JUSTICE. The honorable manager will please reduce his proposition to writing. Mr. Manager BINGHAM. I will. [After writing the proposition.] Mr. President, I desire to read the motion as reduced to writing. Mr. CONKLING. I beg to state that the voice of the manager is entirely inaudible here. Mr. Manager BINGHAM. "The managers move the Senate to so amend rule twenty-one as to allow such of the managers as desire to be heard, and also such of the counsel for the President as desire to be heard, to speak on the final argument, subject to the provision of the rule that the final argument shall be opened and closed by the managers on the part of the House." The CHIEF JUSTICE. Senators, it is moved by the managers on the part of the House of Representatives, that the twenty-first rule be so modified as to allow as many on the part of the managers and as many on the part of the counsel for the President to be heard as may see fit to address the Senate in the final argument. Mr. POMEROY. Mr. President, as that is in the nature of a resolution, under our general rule it should lie over one day for consideration. The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chief Justice was about to observe that the proposition required some answer on the part of the Senate, and that it would be proper for some senator to make a motion in respect to it. Mr. BUCKALEW. I move that the resolution be laid over for consideration until to-morrow. The CHIEF JUSTICE. It goes over, of course, if there be objection. Mr. EDMUNDS. I would inquire of the Chair whether the twenty-first rule does not now provide by its terms that this privilege may be extended to the managers and the counsel if the Senate so order; and I would therefore inquire whether any amendment of the rule be necessary if the Senate should desire to extend that privilege? The CHIEF JUSTICE. Certainly not. It is competent for any senator to move such an order; but the Chair has yet heard no motion to that effect. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. President, I make the motion that the order be adopted. It of course is not necessary that it should lie over, as it is provided for in the rule that this order may be adopted. Mr. POMEROY. I have no objection to taking the vote now, if it is desired. I do not care to have it lie over to another day. The CHIEF JUSTICE. The senator from New Jersey will please reduce his order to writing. Mr. SHERMAN. If it is in order I will move that the twenty-first rule be relaxed so as to allow three persons on each side to speak under the rule, instead of two. The CHIEF JUSTICE. That motion will be in order as an amendment to the order proposed by the senator from New Jersey. Mr. SHERMAN. I withdraw it for the present to allow the vote to be taken on that. The order proposed by Mr. Frelinghuysen having been reduced to writing and sent to the desk The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Secretary will read the order proposed by the senator from New Jersey. The Secretary read as follows: Ordered, That as many of the managers and of the counsel for the respondent be permitted to speak on the final argument as shall choose to do so. The CHIEF JUSTICE. That order will be considered now, unless objected to. Mr. HOWARD. Mr. President, I hope that order will be laid over until the next day's session. The CHIEF JUSTICE. If objected to, it will lie over. Mr. HOWARD. I object. Mr. TRUMBULL. An objection does not carry it over, does it? The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chair thinks it does. Mr. TRUMBULL. It does not change the rule. The rule provides for this very thing being done, if the Senate choose to allow it. Mr. CONKLING. Mr. President, may I inquire under what rule of the Senate thus organized it is that this motion lies over upon the objection of a single senator? The CHIEF JUSTICE. The Chief Justice, in conducting the business of the court, adopts for his general guidance the rules of the Senate sitting in legislative session as far as they are applicable. That is the ground of his decision. Mr. CONKLING. The reason for my inquiry was this: the very rule we are discussing provides that a certain thing shall happen "unless otherwise ordered;" and I supposed a motion otherwise to order was always in order. The CHIEF JUSTICE. It is competent for the senator from New York to appeal from the decision of the Chief Justice. Mr. CONKLING. Oh, no, sir; I merely made the point by way of suggestion to the Chair. Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Chief Justice, I appeal to the honorable member from Michigan to withdraw The CHIEF JUSTICE. No debate is in order. Mr. JOHNSON. I am not about to debate it, sir. If they are to have an opportunity of addressing the Senate they ought at once to know it on both sides. The CHIEF JUSTICE. Gentlemen of counsel for the President, you will please to proceed with the defence. LORENZO THOMAS-examination continued: Mr. STANBERY. General Thomas wishes to make some explanatory state ments. The WITNESS. I wish to correct my testimony yesterday in one or two particulars. I read a letter signed by Mr. Stanton addressed to me on the 21st of February. The date misled me; I did not receive a copy of that letter until the next day after I had made the demand for the office. The Secretary came in and handed me the original, and my impression is that I noted on that original its receipt. It was then handed to General Townsend, who made the copy that I read here, and handed it to me. I had it not until after the demand on the 22d of February. By Mr. STANBERY: Q. Then when you saw the President, on the afternoon of the 21st, you had not yet received that letter from Mr. Stanton? A. I had not. Q. You then stood upon the interview which you referred to ? A. I did. The next correction I want to make is that I am made to say here that the President told me "to take possession of the office." His expression was "take charge of the office." Q. Are you certain that that was his expression? A. Positive. I was asked if I could give the date of my brevet commission. I do not know whether it is important or not, but I have it here. Q. What is the date? A. The brevet of major general 13th of March, 1865. Q. Upon whose recommendation was that? Who first suggested it? A. Mr. Stanton gave it to me. Q. Did you ask him for it or did he volunteer it? Mr. Manager BUTLER. That is not in the nature of correction or of expla nation. Mr. STANBERY. He could not get it yesterday. It was an omitted fact, and he passed it until he could get his commission. Mr. Manager BUTLER. Very good. By Mr STANBERY: Q. How was it; asked for or voluntarily tendered? A. He had more than once said he intended to give it to me, and on this occasion, when I came from some important duty, I said that the time had arrived when I ought to have this commission. He said "certainly," and gave it to me at once. I do not think he ever intended to withhold it. There is another point I want to state. When I was before the committee, or the honorable managers, General Butler asked the clerk, I think it was, for the testimony of Dr. Burleigh. He said he had it not; that it was at his home. I do not know whether I said or he said, "It makes no difference." He asked me a number of questions in reference to that. I assented to them.all. I never heard that testimony read. Q. You never heard Dr. Burleigh's testimony read? A. No, sir; nor do I recollect the particular questions, except that they were asked me, and I assented. I said that Dr. Burleigh, no doubt, would recollect the conversation better than 1. By Mr. Manager BUTLER : Q. General Thomas, how many times yesterday did you answer that the President told you each time to "take possession of the office?" A. I have not read over my testimony particularly. I do not know how many times. Q. Was that untrue each time you said it? A. If I said so, it was. "Take charge" were the words of the President. Q. Have you any memorandum by which you can correct that expression? If so, produce it. A. I have no memorandum with me here; I do not know that I have any. Q. Have you looked at one since you were on the stand? A. I have not. Q. How can you tell better to-day than you could yesterday? A. Because I read that evidence as recorded. Q. You gave it yesterday yourself? A. I did. Q. And you could know better what it was by reading it than when you tes tified to it? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you are sure the word was "charge" each time? A. "Take charge of." Q. And then the three times when you reported to him that Stanton would not go out, refused to go out, each time he said, "Take charge of the office?" A. He did. Q. Was your attention called at the time he said that to the difference between taking "charge" of the office and taking possession" of it? A. My attention was not called to it. 66 Q. How, then, do you so carefully make that distinction now in your mind? A. Because I know that that was his expression. I have thought the matter over. Q. You have always known that that was his expression, have you not? A. Yes. Q. And you have thought the matter over? A. Yes. Q. Well, then, how could you make such a mistake yesterday? A. I think the words were put into my mouth. I do not recollect distinctly. Q. The same as Karsner put in about the kicking out?" A. Yes. 66 Q. And you are rather in the habit, are you, when words are put into your mouth, of using them? A. I am not always in the habit. Q. Why was yesterday an exception? A. I do not know why it was an exception. Q. I want to ask you another question on another subject which was omitted yesterday. A. Certainly. Q. After you and Karsner were summoned here as witnesses, did you go quarrel with him? A. I had some words with him in the room here adjoining. Q. Did you call him a liar and a perjurer? A. I did. Q. You called him a liar and perjurer, did you? and A. I think I did both; I certainly did call him a liar. Q. And a perjurer ? A. I think it is probable I did; but the "liar" I know. Q. You knew that he and you both were in the witness-room waiting to be called? A. I was here. Q. And you knew he was here for that purpose? A. I presume I did; yes. Q. And while he was there you undertook to talk with him about his testimony? A. I stated to him in the two instances; I will give them to you Q. Just answer my question, sir; I have not asked you what you said. I only ask you this question, whether you undertook to talk with him about his testimony? A. I do not know who introduced the conversation. It was certainly not I, I do not think, for he was there some time before I spoke to him. Q. Did you speak first or he? A. That I do not recollect. Q. Now, then, did you tell him that he was a liar and a perjurer at that time? Q. There is another question I want to ask you which was omitted. Do you still intend to take charge or possession of the office of Secretary of War? A. I do. Q. Have you said to any person within a few days, "we'll have that fellow," meaning Stanton, "out, if it sinks the ship? A. Never. A. There was a Mr. Johnson came to see me at my house in reference to another matter, and we may have had some conversation about this. Q. When was it that that Mr. Johnson came to your house to see you about another matter? A. That I hardly recollect. Q. About how long. A. I am trying to recollect now. He came to me about the business Q. Never mind what his business was. When was it? A. But I want to call it to mind. I have a right to do that, I think. Q. But not to state it. A. I took no note of the time, and I can hardly tell. It was recently, not very long ago. Q. Within two or three days? A. No, sir; before that time. Q. Within a week? A. I think it is more than a week. Q. Let me give you the date on Friday, a week ago yesterday? A. I cannot give the date. I do not know it. |