Probably you each of you-know much more than I do about this question of the regulation of common carriers, and I do not doubt that you know that the abuses which exist ought to be abated, and that we ought to obtain from you at the earliest day possible a full measure of relief from discrimination.

I am not prepared to indorse any proposition to confer upon any commission whatever the power to primarily institute and make a "just and reasonable rate.

It seems, however, that it is entirely proper and right that the Commission may examine into all the conditions surrounding, pertaining to, affecting, or affected by any rates or practices which may be established by carriers, and if after a full hearing the Commission finds grounds on which they consider an order justifiable, then, as arbitrators, the order of the Commission should stand until and unless revoked by the court of review, for the making of the rate or the practice by the railroads is necessarily in the first instance ex parte and should not stand unless confirmed by the arbitrator, the Commission.

Relief from the evils of discrimination of every kind and degree, relief from the evils of unreasonably high rates, and to secure the benefits of uniform rates are what we intend to seek through the Nelson bill.

This is our charter to-day, and we think that the bill will accomplish the end sought, but if it will not accomplish that, show us how to amend it, so that justice may be done the public and the railroads alike, and you will confer an inestimable boon on millions who are affected by the matters under discussion.

I have the honor to represent before you the most important commercial organization of the world-an organization comprised of business men, merchants in and about Chicago and in all parts of the country, and also in those countries which are in close commercial touch with the United States.

The vessel and the railroad interests are strongly represented in our membership, as well as all the important banks and kindred interests. We are in close touch with all the agricultural interests of the continent, and may fairly claim to know and reflect the crying needs of the people, and this we intend to do, and believe we are now doing.

Year in and year out for more than think of the time the country has suffered!-more than thirty years, for the Chicago-Omaha pool was formed in 1870, and was grinding on like the car of Juggernaut in full vigor thirty years ago. The public has carried this Old Man of the Sea on its shoulders through a generation. This is no dream, for the vast volume of evidence given before the committees of Congress, before the Commission, before the courts, is perhaps so small in proportion to the amount that would be forthcoming should every man tell what he knew about railroad discriminations, as to constitute but an insignificant per cent of the whole; and yet what a mass of testimony has been printed upon these subjects!

Our prayer is before you. You are the only people who can assist us in this stage of the proceedings. You are the people on whom rests the responsibility for withholding from the people their rights and from granting the railroads the privileges which they deserve to enjoy. Few, if any, will complain that the people have not done their duty fully.

Two bills have been introduced in this session to amend the "Act to regulate commerce," and they are quite dissimilar in scope and in character.

I have been in hopes that some action would be taken whereby the members of the Interstate Commerce Commission would not be left subject to the political fortunes of party, but that their tenure of office would be certain and assured and their income comport with their position.

Give us the best courts possible, give Congress a fair bill, and practically what the railroads honestly know they need and what the public has a right to demand-reasonable safeguards; and, I am convinced, a large part of the present opposition will disappear, and I see now no good reason why the different interests should not come together, and, fairly safeguarding every interest, unite upon a fair, reasonable bill, and this we respectfully and earnestly petition you to do, and lift the traffic of the country out of the slough of despond in which you now see it.

In support of this statement I ask permission to file with this committee a document or report of the Interstate Commerce Commission printed in 1901 and denominated "In the matter of rates, facilities and practices applied in the transportation, handling, and storage of grain and grain products carried from western points to Atlantic seaboard and other Eastern destinations."

Senator KEAN. That is that Chicago case, is it?

The CHAIRMAN. Do you wish this document to go into the record, or is it accessible?

Senator TILLMAN. Is it a Government document?

Mr. CHADWICK. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Then we do not want to print it.

Mr. CHADWICK. I am going to put it in here if you will permit. The CHAIRMAN. If it is a Government document and accessible, we do not need to reprint it.

Mr. CHADWICK. You can refer to it, of course.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it to be filled with your testimony?

Mr. CHADWICK. Yes.

Senator TILLMAN. I suggest to Mr. Chadwick that he will better accomplish his purpose if he will designate in specific terms just what portion of the document he refers to, so that anyone, in the extreme pressure of work here, can get it at once.

Senator KEAN. It is page 279.

Senator TILLMAN. Mr. Chadwick has not said anything about page 279. I suggest to him to designate what portion of that document bears out the statement he made a few moments ago.

Mr. CHADWICK. You get this matter on page 279.

The CHAIRMAN. You say the matter you refer to appears on page 279 in the document mentioned, and let that go in your testimony. Mr. CHADWICK. If you so instruct me.

The CHAIRMAN. I make that suggestion, thinking it will reach what Senator Tillman wants.

Mr. CHADWICK. I shall finish in a moment.

This seems to me one of the most flagrant of all the numerous instances of wrongdoing on the part of the railroad fraternity which recently has come to my attention.

It seems to me that if we do not promptly enact a law which will not only check but abate such practices by the common carriers, we may expect them to encroach more and more on the province of the legitimate merchant in all directions, which can not fail to lead to and produce most deplorable results.

What will happen if the railroads go on and engross the business of the lumbermen, the iron dealer, the miller, the merchant, and so on, as they, in the instance cited, have treated the grain men in the territory named? What can the answer be but anarchy?

Now, Senator Tillman, I am at your disposal.

Senator TILLMAN. What I wanted was to have you designate specifically, so that it would be of easy reference to any Senator who may send for the document if this matter should come up in the Senate for consideration. If you understood the immense pressure that is on even the laziest of us here to try to keep in touch with what is going on, you would understand the value of such specific statements and references to data that can be secured in a moment. It will not do to proceed upon the assumption that men will read it, for they will not. But I want you to specify in as condensed shape as possible just what portion of that document bears out the statement you have just made as to the Santa Fe going into the grain business and hiring agents to monopolize the grain trade on the line of its road.

The CHAIRMAN. How recently was that? What year?

Mr. CHADWICK. It was recent enough. It is hard to find, because these hearings are printed without any proper heading or reference. Senator TILLMAN. I suggest that we allow the stenographer to put it in when Mr. Chadwick finds it.

Mr. CHADWICK. I will try to help you. It was notably the testimony of one Robinson, of the firm of Ball & Robinson, and of Paul Morton, vice-president of the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe. The CHAIRMAN. What year was that?

Mr. CHADWICK. Perhaps it was last year.

The CHAIRMAN. It must have been last fall.

Mr. CHADWICK. I see the date here "Washington, January 9" for one of them.

The CHAIRMAN. Last year was when it happened, I think. May I suggest that you fix this with the stenographer to give this data as Senator Tillman suggests. Is that all you have to submit?

Mr. CHADWICK. Yes, unless I am asked questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Does any member of the committee desire to ask any questions?

Senator TILLMAN. I did not hear all of Mr. Chadwick's statement or evidence or argument. I would like to ask him whether he thinks that the business interests of the country could stand a pooling arrangement among railroads? He may have answered that question in his statement, but I want to know specifically. One of these bills provides for pooling, subject to ratification by the Interstate Commence Commission. I want his opinion or that of those whom he represents as to that matter.

Mr. CHADWICK. I will say in reply to the question of the Senator that it is generally understood that railroad men are better able to understand all the elements involved in the law granting to the Commission the power to make rates; that railroad men are probably better experts to judge of what are proper rates, and therefore railroad men FRP-S

feel as they say they do, and consequently seek a bill providing for pooling by the railroads. If we once admit that they are the best judges in this matter, it seems to me, if you heard the premise that the railroad people are so

Senator TILLMAN. So expert and honest?

Mr. CHADWICK. No; but so free from suggestion of self-seeking that they are really and truly experts, experts who will do justice in any case that comes before them, then your question is answered.

On the other hand, while the people are complaining against railroad practices, the railroads themselves have their own troubles, and one special feature before this Congress is the production of a bill to protect the railroads against each other. This confession-for it seems to be such should appeal to the honest man in whatever walk of life, and should influence him to urge speedy action for the solution of the problem.

As pooling was practiced in the past it seemed to make rates unduly high and onerous. One great desideratum with us is uniform rates. We seek to escape discrimination. That is the greatest evil, as we consider. The great desideratum is to have uniform and steady rates, rates that are not changed by mere whim, but when made shall be made on some proper basis, and not as in the old pooling times, when the railroads skinned each other.

Instead of having pooling based on net earnings, we think pooling should be based on other considerations, namely, that they should take into consideration the equipment and the opportunities of earning money. They should take into consideration whether the equipment has been allowed to deteriorate, because I take it if the spirit of emulation is removed-which, of course, is a good spirit, needing only to be properly safeguarded-we shall have a drop, and equipment and service will deteriorate. I never heard anyone suggest that it would not, if let alone.

Pooling, pure and simple, would be something, of course, that would be a disgrace to the country, and not up to the times. So, when you ask me that question, I would answer by asking you another, seeking to get light before I give an answer: Would not pooling tend to stifle competition and lead to deterioration in service and equipment? If the spirit of emulation be removed, will not the whole railroad service deteriorate in all these features and become inadequate to the needs of the country? Could not the individual lines evade their responsibilities? Senator TILLMAN. Are you through with your question?

Mr. CHADWICK. No; I want to answer your question, Senator, honestly, if you want me to. You do not want to cut me off, do you? Senator TILLMAN. Not at all.

Mr. CHADWICK. The Board of Trade of the city of Chicago represents a great number of people-has a tremendous clientele. Representing that great number of people, they are in favor of having relief. We pray for relief. We want relief. But we want all conditions safeguarded on both sides of this controversy-I take it that it is called a controversy. We want everything safeguarded fairly. If there is any person living who can formulate the terms under which pooling can be permitted I wish that person would give you the benefit of his suggestions. There is nothing wicked, per se, in pooling. The wickedness in any of these things is the result to the person who is outside of the control and also outside the benefits of the pool. The

railroads have heretofore had vast benefits from pools, but the people have suffered.

If there is such deterioration of service and equipment, can all be cared for under a pooling bill? What difference does it make? Everybody is served alike. It is the very thing we ask for. If we have good service under proper conditions the railroads will not become a laughing stock, but will be as they are now, a thing in which we take great pride.

It seems to me that the people have suffered so long that we can not do otherwise than to take the best we can get. But we ought to insist upon having the best obtainable. Therefore, Governor Tillman, I will say that in the matter of pooling I am on the fence. I do not care a fig if we do have pooling, provided it is surrounded with proper safeguards. My people do not care, and the people at large do not care. You did not hear the first of my statement.

Senator TILLMAN. No.

Mr. CHADWICK. I wish you had, because I showed the horrors of the pooling arrangements in the West and Southwest, and I think I gave a very fair statement in regard to it; don't you, Mr. Chairman ? The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Senator TILLMAN. Now, can I ask a question?

Mr. CHADWICK. Certainly.

Senator TILLMAN. In asking your questions a moment ago you said your answers were given in some measure by interrogatories?

Mr. CHADWICK. I was merely endeavoring to attract your attention to the point.

Senator TILLMAN. Then, instead of making a direct statement, with your opinion, you merely asked some questions, from which you drew deductions. Those deductions, to my mind, seemed to show that you were in favor of pooling, provided it should be safe-guarded by impossible conditions. In other words, you do not regard it as possible, do you, that human nature will lose its selfishness or that unlimited power will ever restrain itself so as to protect the masses against monopoly? Did I understand you correctly?

Mr. CHADWICK. I certainly would not have the safe-guards against pooling tied with a rope of sand.

Senator TILLMAN. What I was after was to get your opinion, as a business man representing business men, as to the feasibility, the practicability, the desirability, of some compromise arrangement, if that be possible, that would give relief from the present unbearable conditions, and at the same time not jeopardize the great interests of transportation. I do not think any reasonable person wants to ruin the railroads or unduly to hamper them or destroy their profit-earning capacity. The real question, after all, is to give the business interests of the country proper transportation facilities, to guard against discriminations, and you want a uniform, steady, and just rate-the justice being the most essential of those three features of the rate. You do not want any secret rebate given to competitors who are getting advantages from the railroads. Those are the elements.

Mr. CHADWICK. Certainly.

Senator TILLMAN. Do you believe that human nature can stand the strain of being allowed a rope and not using it? In other words, if you give the railroads the power to pool, if you do not hold the club over their heads by some statutory provision, will they not abuse it?