the present locks certain protective devices, which have already been developed in connection with the present locks, and certain improve

ments.

PROPOSED LOCATION OF THIRD SET OF LOCKS

Some criticism has been made to the effect that the additional locks in the proposed project are being placed too near the existing locks. In my opinion, such criticism is not valid from the viewpoint of adequate protection of the new locks. Furthermore, the location of the new locks has advantages both economic and military which make such location, as planned, desirable.

Senator THOMAS. How near are these new locks to the existing locks?

Governor RIDLEY. The ones on the Pacific side are about a quarter of a mile away and the one on the Atlantic side is about balf a mile

away.

Senator THOMAS. Are you prepared to exhibit a map of the Canal Zone showing the Gatun Lock and the existing locks and also showing the proposed locks so that we can have a picture of the whole development?

Governor RIDLEY. Yes, sir; do you want to look at it?

Senator THOMAS. Yes, sir. I would like to have it so that the Members of the Committee can see it at their pleasure, and if you will take the time, you might exhibit it to us and give us a preliminary idea. I wonder if that could be held back there so that all the Members can see it?

(Governor Ridley exhibited a colored map on the wall of the hearing room.)

PACIFIC OCEAN SIDE

Now, this project affects only the portions of the Canal at either end of Gatun Lake. This is the Pacific ocean [indicating] and this is Balboa Harbor [indicating], and this shows the present Canal and locks [indicating]. Now, for the new project we expect to take off with a by-pass channel from Balboa Harbor along this colored line [indicating] and put in a set of locks at this point [indicating] which will raise the vessel two-thirds of the way up to Gatun Lake level. And then it enters the Miraflores Lake, which exists now. Then it starts another bypass around the Pedro Miguel locks along this line [indicating] and requires another lock opposite the existing Pedro Miguel locks to raise the vessel up to the level of Gatun Lake at this point [indicating]. This is the Culebra Cut [indicating].

Senator TRUMAN. Are those new locks big enough to let the Queen Mary and the Queen Elizabeth go through when the work is completed? Governor RIDLEY. Yes, sir.

Senator HAYDEN. Then the exceedingly heavy work that was done in the Gaillard Cut does not have to be done over again? Do you utilize that?

Governor RIDLEY. No, sir; it starts here [indicating] after you pass through the Gaillard Cut.

Senator HAYDEN. You can avoid doing anything in the range of higher mountains that was cut through at Culebra or the Gaillard Cut?

ATLANTIC OCEAN SIDE

Governor RIDLEY. Yes, sir; all the slide area is in there [indicating]. Now, the Atlantic side-this is Limon Bay and the Atlantic Ocean [indicating], and this is Gatun Lock [indicating]. The present Canal is here [indicating], and these are the present locks [indicating]. We are going over here about a half mile away and cut a channel down from Gatun Lake to this point along that colored line [indicating]. The locks will be in here [indicating]. There are three chambers in one flight there, dropping from 85 feet to sea level.

Senator LODGE. How far away is that one from the other?

Governor RIDLEY. About half a mile away from one lock to here [indicating]. I can leave these maps with you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator THOMAS. I think it would be advisable. The secretary will take charge of them so they will not be misplaced.

INVESTMENT IN PANAMA CANAL

For the record, will you please state the cost of the existing system at Panama Canal and locks; in other words, how much has been expended in Panama on the locks and the Canal?

Governor RIDLEY. The total cost of the Canal capitalized on our books is approximately $543,000,000. In that capital cost there is a 129 million theoretical interest on the investment during construction. That brings it down to about $414,000,000 as actual construction cost Senator THOMAS. Do you include in that figure all of the improvements that have been made on the zone in connection with the Panama Canal?

Governor RIDLEY. Yes, sir; since the opening of the Canal. Now, shortly after the Canal was opened that is, in 1916-the capital cost, I think was around $348,000,000 but additional costs since then have brought it up to about $414,000,000

ESTIMATED COST OF THIRD SET OF LOCKS

Senator THOMAS. And this improvement is estimated to cost $277,000,000?

Governor RIDLEY. $277,000,000.

Senator THOMAS. If this improvement is constructed, it will be almost a new Panama Canal, will it not?

Governor RIDLEY. In the vital areas which are subject to attack, there will be practically 2 canals.

Senator THOMAS. What I am especially interested in now is the necessity for this additional canal.

Governor RIDLEY. Yes, sir. That is the end of my statement and I would like to have you hear General Strong, if you will, on the necessity.

FULL AMOUNT OF ESTIMATE SUBMITTED TO BUDGET BUREAU ALLOWED

Senator O'MAHONEY. May I ask what was the request that was directed to the Budget for this item? How much, in other words, did you ask the Budget?

Governor RIDLEY. Well, there is a limitation in our act of authorization to $15,000,000 the first year. We asked for $15,000,000 with authority to contract for $99,000,000.

Senator O'MAHONEY. And the Budget Bureau allowed the $15,000,000 and the authority to contract?

Governor RIDLEY. Yes, sir.

Senator O'MAHONEY. And the House cut it all out?

Governor RIDLEY. Yes, sir.

Senator HAYDEN. If we had to start in now as we did when we built the first Canal, the cost, in this instance, would be about the same as the original cost, but by building these parallel locks, all existing utilities, roads, and equipment and everything else that you developed there on the zone are utilized in connection with this new work, and that is why it does not cost as much as the original job? Governor RIDLEY. That is true. Of course, if the present Canal were built now, it would cost nearly double what it cost then. Costs have gone up very greatly.

Senator HAYDEN. For both labor and material?
Governor RIDLEY. Costs have gone up; yes.

WHEN CONTRACTS UNDER CONTRACT AUTHORIZATION WOULD BE LET

Senator O'MAHONEY. If you were granted the authority to make contracts for $99,000,000, those contracts, I assume, would be immediately made?

Governor RIDLEY. Those contracts would be made about March of next year.

Senator O'MAHONEY. That is, within the fiscal year for which we are making the appopriations?

Governor RIDLEY. Yes, sir.

STATUS OF PLANS FOR THIRD SET OF LOCKS

Senator LODGE. Governor, I have seen it stated that the plans for these new works had not reached a sufficiently high point of completion to justify the appropriation of funds at this time. I have had that statement made to me. Is that correct?

Governor RIDLEY. In my opinion, that is not correct.

Senator LODGE. You have got all the plans made and you are all ready to go if you get the money?

FIRST CONTRACT WOULD BE FOR EXCAVATING WORK

Governor RIDLEY. As I stated in here, the plans will be ready by the time the contracts must be made to complete the work in 6 years. The first contract will be the excavation. All our plans are made for the excavation work but between now and the time we advertise, we may refine the side slopes and maybe make a little shift in location, but without question, the plans and specifications can be made so that we can advertise and make contracts during the year 1941.

Senator O'MAHONEY. To what extent do you now have the plans prepared?

Governor RIDLEY. Well, perhaps I can illustrate it. If you go to prepare a speech which you are going to make, you may work a month on research and on making up your mind what you are going to say, and then you come to the point where you put it down on paper. I think you would feel that the speech was practically completed when you knew exactly what you were going to say, but you

hadn't put it down on paper. Now, we have gone even further than that with the plans for excavation. We have put it down on paper. After you have put your speech on paper you go through it and correct it. That is all we have to do now so far as the excavation plans are concerned.

Senator O'MAHONEY. To what extent have you gone to putting it down on paper?

Governor RIDLEY. There it is right there.

STATUS OF SPECIFICATIONS AND DETAILED PLANS

Senator O'MAHONEY. Of course, the engineering details do not appear on that. Your specifications do not appear there. Have you got your specifications?

Governor RIDLEY. No, but the excavation contract specifications are very simple. On slopes, we have had expert geological studies going on. They have arrived at the tentative slopes for each depth of cut. We know the width of the bottom of the Canal. Then all we have to do is to decide finally what side slopes we are going to have. Now, that has all been worked out with the exception of possible refinements that may be made.

CONTRACTS WOULD NOT EXCEED TOTAL ESTIMATED COST

Senator O'MAHONEY. You have made a sufficient study to justify you in the assumption that the contracts you propose to let, if given the authority, would not exceed the cost which is mentioned in the bill, is that correct?

Governor RIDLEY. Yes; our unit costs and quantities are ample. We took care about that thing when we prepared the project which was presented to Congress on which the authority was given, because I am a great believer in making the figures high, so that if Congress adopts it, they can be assured that they are comparing the project with a figure that is not going to be too low.

EFFECT OF ALLOWING DIRECT APPROPRIATION AND DISALLOWING CONTRACT AUTHORIZATION

Senator O'MAHONEY. What would be the result of action by which you were allowed the $14,150,000 or the $15,000,000 and were denied the right to contract; just what would you do then? How much would it delay to the progress of the work?

Governor RIDLEY. If we were not authorized in this bill to contract, it places an element of doubt in the situation and may delay the work as much as 6 months. You see, next January, contractors all over the country will be interested in this thing and will be coming down there and going to the expense of finding out what the details are; also when we issue the bids, they will do that. But if we can't issue the bids, they will not feel certain and we will not feel certain that we are going to get an authorization-that we are even going to make a contract after the 1st of July. The authority to contract costs very little this year. If we have to wait for authority to contract another year, that will cause delay.

REASON FOR LANGUAGE TO PERMIT GOVERNOR OF CANAL ZONE TO LET CONTRACTS WHEN AUTHORIZED BY SECRETARY OF WAR

Senator O'MAHONEY. I observe that the language which you propose reads as follows:

And, in addition, the Governor of the Panama Canal may, when authorized by the Secretary of War, make or authorize the making of contracts prior to July 1, 1941—

and so on.

Does not the phrase, “when authorized by the Secretary of War," justify the inference that the plans are not sufficiently developed yet so that the War Department knows that these bids would be called for for the full amount?

Governor RIDLEY. No, sir; that was put in, I think, by the Bureau of the Budget because they didn't want to leave the entire control of these large contracts in the hands of the Governor. I feel sure that was the case, but I won't state positively.

Senator O'MAHONEY. But actually the War Department and the Secretary of War have indicated already their willingness to authorize this full plan you have for the work?

Governor RIDLEY. Yes, but I take it that the Secretary of War will have to act specifically on each large contract that comes under that authorization.

Senator O'MAHONEY. In other words, that would require supervisory authority by the Secretary?

Governor RIDLEY. Yes, and it probably would be insisted upon by the Comptroller General's Office that he approve these contracts. Senator O'MAHONEY. I thank you very much.

EXTRACT FROM HOUSE REPORT ON TIME REQUIRED TO COMPLETE DETAILED PLANS

Senator THOMAS. Governor, I want to ask you a few more questions. The House committee, in its report, makes a statement that it will take 2 years to complete the detailed plans and 4 years afterward to complete the work, which makes the completion of the Canal a matter of 6 years' construction, and the House committee suggests that since it may take 6 years to construct, it would not be at this time an urgent, immediate military necessity. In another place, they use this language:

It may be all right to proceed with the preparation of detailed plans and specifications since such work, it is said, will take 2 years.

Now, upon what could they have based the phrase, "it is said?" Did that come from the War Department?

Governor RIDLEY. I told the House committee it would take 2 years to make the detailed plans of the locks. Perhaps I didn't make it clear to the committee, because the detailed plans for the excavation will not require 2 years. I thought it was well understood by the committee, but apparently it was not.