REGIONAL EDUCATION INTERSTATE COMPACT FRIDAY, MARCH 12, 1948 UNITED STATES SENATE, SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, Washington, D. C. The subcommittee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to call, in room 424, Senate Office Building, Senator Alexander Wiley (chairman) presiding. Present: Senators Wiley (chairman) and McGrath. Present also: Senators Cooper, Holland, Johnston of South Caro- Senator PEPPER. Mr. Chairman, could I say a word to you? This meeting is called to consider Senate Joint Resolution 191, which at this time will be printed in the record. (The bill is as follows:) [S. J. RES. 191, 80th Cong., 2d sess.] JOINT RESOLUTION Giving the consent of Congress to the compact on regional education entered into between the Southern States at Tallahassee, Florida, on February 8, 1948 Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the compact entered into at the conference of Southern Governors at Tallahassee, Florida, on February 8, 1948, between the States of Alabama, Arkansas, South Carolina, Florida, Georgia, Maryland, Mississippi, Tennessee, and Texas, and such other States named therein who have or may become parties thereto, to wit: The States of Virginia, West Virginia, North Carolina, Kentucky, Louisiana, and Oklahoma, said compact relating to the establishment of the Board of Control for Southern Regional Education, providing for the planning, establishment, acquisition, and operation of educational institutions on a regional basis, supported by public funds derived from taxation by the constituent States, in accordance with the terms, provisions, and conditions set out and contained in said compact, is hereby consented to by the Congress of the United States of America. The CHAIRMAN. Let it appear that notice was inserted in the Congressional Record on March 3, which notice is as follows, which will also be inserted in the record at this point: (The notice is as follows:) Mr. WILEY. Mr. President, on behalf of the Committee on the Judiciary, I desire to give notice that a public hearing has been scheduled for Friday, March 12, 1948, at 10 a. m., in the Senate Judiciary Committee room, room 424, Senate Office Building, on Senate Joint Resolution 191, "Giving the consent of Congress to the compact of regional education entered into between the Southern States at Tallahassee, Florida, on February 8, 1948." At the indicated time and place all persons interested in the above resolution may make such representations as may be pertinent. The subcommittee consists of the Senator from 1 Wisconsin (Mr. Wiley), chairman, and the Senator from Rhode Island (Mr. McGrath). The CHAIRMAN. Now I will be glad to hear from you, Senator Pepper. STATEMENT OF HON. CLAUDE PEPPER, A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA Senator PEPPER. Mr. Chairman, I want to express my regret that because of membership on a subcommittee of the Committee on Agriculture which is considering some very vital proposed amendments to the legislation affecting the citrus industy of this country and especially of our State, it is not going to be possible for me to remain here to hear the Governor of our State and other witnesses testify upon this matter of which I am one of the introducers and in which I am very much interested. We are very proud of the part that our distinguished Governor has had in the formulation and the support of this program. I think it is of vital interest in the South, and especially to our State. At a subsequent time I do have a statement that I would like to make in the record but I would not at this time want to take the time that has been set aside for us to hear our Governor. I just wanted to express our regrets to him, and to the committee, that on account of those circumstances the subcommittee is awaiting my return. If you will excuse me, and if the Governor will excuse me, I will appear at a later time. The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask you one or two questions. This resolution provides for an interstate compact and of course, that has been a common practice, as evidenced by the numerous interstate compacts which have received the approval of the Federal Government through our history. Not having been a member of the group that has endorsed this, I want to ask you this question: Are you satisfied that the purpose of this joint resolution would meet with the approval of the people generally of the South? Senator PEPPER. Unmistakably so. The CHAIRMAN. Does that apply to the colored people as well as the white people? Senator PEPPER. Yes. The Governor may go into some detail as to the principal beneficiaries of this proposal. It is a legitimate, forward-looking proposal, by which the States of the South can pool their resources to provide for all their people, better facilities and in many instances facilities which do not at all exist; and where there are facilities in existence, better facilities than we have at the present time. I am sure the Governor will be able to go into that in detail and show that. But I think you will find that the people of all races, creeds, in the South, will be united behind this resolution because it is for the benefit of all the people of the South. The CHAIRMAN. I understand Senator Cooper wants a word or two. STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN SHERMAN COOPER, A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF KENTUCKY Senator COOPER. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I appear here to make a short statement. Senate Joint Resolution 191, which was introduced on February 25, was sponsored by a number of Senators. On that resolution appears my name as one of the sponsors. At the time it was introduced I consented to my name appearing on it. I will say to the committee frankly that when it was proposed I knew that this matter had been considered by my own State, Kentucky. Frankly, being here in Washington and concerned with other matters that had come before us, I had not given the matter any great deal of study and thought. Since that time, and in considering it, questions have arisen in my mind upon several points. First, upon the pure legal status, the question has been raised as to whether or not this resolution, if enacted into law, would be in violation or would contradict recent decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States. I have not had time to go into that matter. The second point has been raised that even if it does not contradict in its terms the recent decision of the Supreme Court of the United States that it may, indirectly, in spirit, be directed against the principle of equal legislation of opportunities. I I am not a member of the subcommittee which will consider this matter, but I am a member of the full Committee on the Judiciary to which it will later be reported, either favorably or unfavorably. have decided that I do not want to prejudice any decision that I might later want to make upon this resolution by appearing as a sponsor to the resolution. I will not be able to approach the matter when it comes before the full committee with an open mind. For that reason I have come before this committee to withdraw my name as one of its sponsors. The CHAIRMAN. I understand your position is that at this time you are not sufficiently advised as to the merits to say whether or not you would be for or against it, but you feel under the circumstances, having put your name to the joint resolution, you would like to have the name withdrawn? Senator COOPER. I want my name withdrawn, and I want to be in the position to hear all the testimony upon the matter, consider it objectively, and then make my own decision as to whether or not it is a forward-looking proposal for my own State, and the people of the South, or if it is an indirect method of opposing the Supreme Court decisions and fundamental constitutional principles. The CHAIRMAN. Senator, your wish will be granted. We will be glad to have you study the legal phases of it, and when we get into the committee we will be glad to have the benefit of your judgment. STATEMENT OF HON. SPESSARD L. HOLLAND, A UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA Senator HOLLAND. I would like to make a statement. The CHAIRMAN. All right, Senator Holland. Senator HOLLAND. In the first place, I personally invited the other Senators from the South to join with me in the sponsoring of this resolution, which I think is extremely constructive, and extremely forward looking, and I think which requires no defense nor apology. I asked Senator Cooper if he cared to join and was gratified that he stated to me that he did, which I thought was at that time his own decision in the matter. If he has chosen to take another course, that is quite all right. The only thing I regret is that he did not advise me rather than to come before the committee because I would have been glad to have stricken his name from among the sponsors. I would have been quite willing to sponsor the resolution solely by myself, because I think it is righteous, constructive, forward looking, and promises tremendous values for all of the youngsters of the southern area. Senator COOPER. I would like to say one thing there, if I can. I did not come here to get into a controversy with my good friend the Senator from Florida. But I do want to then, upon the basis of what he said, relate the circumstances and I know you will agree. The decision I made was my own. I in no way cast any of the decision upon him. You remember that the Senator from Florida did ask me if I would join with all of the other Members of the Senate from the Southern States upon the resolution. At the time we were sitting in the Senate, just before the Senate convened, and I think the Senator will remember that I told him that I had not given it any consideration, and I asked him at the time if, in his opinion-I believe you will agree with me on this-it violated or was in controversy with some of the matters which are so much in public discussion today. I think the Senator will agree with me, he assured me that it did not. Upon that assurance I consented to become one of the sponsors. I think I am correct in that. Senator HOLLAND. What I stated to the Senator was that any question that now exists with the courts would still be left with the courts and as far as I was concerned, I did not feel that the adoption of the resolution would change the legal situation in any way. That is substantially what I told the Senator. Senator COOPER. Yes. There is no controversy between us. I stated my position. Thank you. Senator HOLLAND. Mr. Chairman, my statement will be very brief. The effort of the southern Governors and of southern educators to launch a program looking to regional cooperation and education is one of long duration. As the chairman knows, I had the honor of serving for 4 years, from 1941 to 1945, as Governor of my State, and I recall that not once but many times during that period this subject came up for discussion. I see present the chancellor of the university system of the State of Georgia who at the time was president of the University of Alabama, and who appeared either once or twice before our southern Governors as a visitor and we discussed at that time the evolution of this program which he then was strongly supporting and which I believe he still strongly supports. The resolution comes before this committee upon a compact which has been drawn-which has been signed by 14 Governors of the 15 States, which I believe will be signed by the fifteenth Governor, who by the way is the Governor of the State of Kentucky, so ably represented by Senator Cooper, who has not in any way declined to sign the compact, but instead, being a new Governor, and not conversant with the study which has gone into this effort, he has requested the time to study the matter, which I think shows a sound and conservative approach. The resolution, with the name of Senator Cooper withdrawn, shows that 28 Senators from the 15 Southern States are joint sponsors of the resolution. The resolution seeks to approve a compact signed, as I have stated, by 14 Governors, and which offers the machinery for legal joint effort by any two or more of the States in the creation of new or the support of old, or the merger of old institutions of learning and for joint efforts which we think can accomplish much more in the field of education than will be possible by single effort. The CHAIRMAN. Have you a copy of the compact? Senator HOLLAND. I have a copy of the compact, but since Governor Caldwell will be the principal witness upon the compact itself I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we allow the introduction to come at the time he testifies, which will be in just a moment. I simply want to say for myself that I regard this as a program of tremendous importance and I am proud to present as the first witness the Governor of Florida, who has served as chairman of the Committee of Governors in drafting and securing the signatures of the 14 Governors to the compact and who I think very properly is best in position to explain the meaning of the compact in general, and the objectives which the Governors and the Southern States have in mind. I present Governor Caldwell as the first witness. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator. We are glad to see you again, Governor. I want to suggest that one thing we lack here is time. If you can introduce into the record the compact, and give us a brief résumé of its provisions, and secondly, if you will analyze, taking the position that it is valid, and tell us why it meets any legal objections, that will undoubtedly be thrown at it-because we have a bunch of wires here, my clerk tells me, from a number of sources. The only objection that has really been made is that it violates the Constitution and does not square with the decisions of the Supreme Court. I just give you that because, after all, that is the main issue in this case, as I see it. STATEMENT OF HON. MILLARD F. CALDWELL, GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA; CHAIRMAN, REGIONAL COUNCIL FOR EDUCATION Governor CALDWELL. Mr. Chairman, I regret that I am not prepared to discuss that question in detail, because it has nothing to do with the problem before this committee in the slightest. The CHAIRMAN. I cannot agree with that conclusion. I must say that this is the Judiciary Committee of the Senate, and one of the first questions that I think arises before a committee is always whether or not the particular resolution or bill is constitutional in that respect. But then, if you do not want to discuss it, probably someone else will. Governor CALDWELL. I will be very happy to discuss it, and to give you my reasons why it has nothing to do or The CHAIRMAN. Maybe I misunderstood you. |