essential that the educational opportunities offered in every State or section be sufficiently numerous, varied, and adequate to meet all the desires and needs of all citizens, and that they be of a quality comparable with the best offered in other sections of the country; otherwise, our citizens will compete on an unequal basis. The demand in all States today for additional training in professional and graduate fields is very pressing. Furthermore, the demand is for training of high quality. In many States, not only in the South but elsewhere, opportunities for training in certain fields is nonexistent, and frequently the demands are for training in newer fields, requiring new and expensive equipment and facilities. A detailed study is being made of the educational needs in all the Southern States, but it is already known that in some States no medical training is offered; that opportunities in aeronautical training are quite limited; that there are only one or two schools in veterinary science for the entire area; that despite the enormous growth in public and school libraries there are only two or three recognized training institutions in these States, and that training opportunities in mining engineering are quite limited. These are but examples of the need; the list could be extended greatly, varying from State to State. In some fields, however, there

are adequate facilities, and if it is right to provide adequate training for one group of citizens it is only right to provide it for all.

Every State, regardless of its wealth, has now reached the point where it must consider the cost of providing educational opportunities for all its citizens. In addition to the problem of total cost, there is the matter of efficiency and economy of operation. For example, certain States with a relatively small population may have so small a number of applicants for a particular type of training that it could hardly justify providing the initial outlay and current cost of operation; on the other hand, even though the number desiring this type of training is small, everyone is entitled to the training he desires.

It appears that a simple solution to this problem is cooperation among the States or a group of States in providing the necessary facilities and opportunities. This plan simply means that the territory served by a particular type of institution or by a particular professional school, supported by two or more States, would be sufficiently large to guarantee a student body large enough to justify operation of the institution. This plan of cooperative effort does not mean that less money will be spent upon professional, technical, and graduate education; to the contrary, it would undoubtedly mean that more money would be spent. But opportunities provided would be greater and the money would be spent more economically, as each State would not be called upon to furnish education in every field for a student body limited in size.

A final result, and a most important one, is that the quality of education could be raised. If a State is left to its own resources to provide the whole range of educational opportunities for all its citizens, it is quite obvious that quality must suffer. There are only a few institutions in our country of the highest standing in every field, but these have enormous resources behind them, and the number of students admitted is limited. There is no reason why institutions of the same high quality, with even a wider range of educational opportunities and superior facilities could not be provided in every section of the country, if the provisions of the proposed compact were carried out. This proposal, in effect, is but a simple extension of a basic principle in educational administration, which is that the larger unit of operation provides for superior and more economical education.

Finally, it should be made abundantly clear that the principles of the proposed compact are sound in their application among all the States of the Union. Inevitably, every State will be faced eventually with the necessity of cooperating with one or more States in providing these opportunities for all its citizens. It is but the better part of wisdom to anticipate these problems and to be prepared to solve them. It is merely fortuitous that the Southern States have the opportunity of setting a pattern or operation for all States.

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Paty, chancelor, University System of Georgia. Doctor, we are glad to see you. We understand you were formerly the president of the University of Alabama and you are now chancelor of the University System of Georgia.

STATEMENT OF DR. R. R. PATY, CHANCELOR, UNIVERSITY SYSTEM OF GEORGIA

Dr. PATY. I think, following my predecessor, I shall stand and will speak more briefly.

Mr. Chairman, I am representing particularly the educational phases of this program.

I have had the good fortune of working in higher education and in public and private education for the past 30 years, North and South.

am representing somewhat the opinions of the several hundred educators who convened and discussed our mutual problems of higher education throughout the Nation, as well as in the South.

I am not sectional in any sense, because I am interested in the higher education of all the youth of our Nation.

I do not need to elaborate upon that, because I have given my whole life-and continue to give it-for the whole population, white and Negro, any color, race, or creed.

My record is public to all sections of the country in dealing with this problem.

I would like to represent, Mr. Chairman, if I could, this morning, a regional section of the Middle West, a sparsely settled region, where the need for cooperative effort can bring about infinitely better results when we are meeting double the responsibilities in higher educational, professional, and technical, as well as graduate, study.

So, I would like to plead for any region. If I were here from any of your regions, I hope I might have the privilege of being selected upon a committee to try to provide for better facilities for the youth in that region, as a part of the national picture.

There is nothing sectional or provincial in anything I believe or say, according to my own public record, as I have lived throughout the United States, North and South. I have given my whole life to this particular problem of education for the youth of our country. We do have in the South unlimited resources. We always are talking about limited resources. We have unlimited resources in youth, in young men and young women, with scarcities of facilities to give them an education equal to other areas of our country; and we look upon this from the standpoint of people in education as an opportunity by the combination of efforts and talent and resources, to provide, not mediocrity for our youth, but better facilities for all of our youth-and I emphasize, "all of our youth."

An organization to enable us to do this is what we seek from the educator's viewpoint. I could give many illustrations of this. Two or three, I think, will suffice, and I can multiply it in other regions as well.

While I was president of the University of Alabama, there was a need for the development of a school of veterinary science. There were many informal conferences. Neither of the States surrounding us could afford such an institution; in fact, there were only 12 in the United States.

The prohibitive cost of inaugurating such a school made us make some effort to try to provide for a region or a subregion, even, for the youth who wanted to go into veterinary science; but there was no vehicle, no instrument through which we could get together officially and pool our financial resources in order to accomplish it.

Consequently, we are going to have, perhaps, some mediocrity, unless we are able, even at this stage of the game, to pool our resources.

Since I became chancelor and, I might say, I am responsible for Negro education and white education above the high-school level in all phases of education-I have been faced with the same old problem of beginning a school of veterinary service that would require money out of a treasury that already devoted pretty well over half of its money to public education, trying to start a new institution of veterinary science.

I have protested against it publicly and privately, because it is going to weaken the other facilities of our State if we provide a new facility that will cost in its initial cost about $2,000,000, and its operating expense about a quarter of a million dollars.

Already with impoverished facilities for both Negroes and whites within our State-and it is similar in other regions-what we are asking for, in brief, is a facility, a pact between the States that will enable us through our constituted authorities to provide better and more facilities for the youth of our region.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I have here a wire that indicates opposition, and I would like to get your reaction.

Speaking about the subject, they say that the "Negro land colleges do not approve regionalism as a method of equalization."

I suppose they mean equalizing educational opportunities of Negroes. They asked to be heard, and we wired they will be heard.

In this particular procedure or method up here of interstate compacts, do you see any jeopardy to the rights of either white or Negro people?

Dr. PATY. I do not, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. This or any other regionalism, do you see that there is any jeopardy to the education opportunities of the Negroes?

Dr. PATY. None at all. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that if in the State where I am now serving, or in any State that is represented nationally, if you are able to relieve your tax structure of the more expensive types of graduate professional work by pooling resources, it enables you to broaden the base of Negro education and all types of education, on the college level, as well as on the elementary and highschool levels.

Certainly, as far as the land-grant institutions are concerned, that are just beginning to show development in the State where I am now, it would enable me to give twice as much money if we could unload on a regional basis for some of these more highly specialized schools, the school of mines, the school of forestry, and this, that, and the other schools, that are very highly expensive, and it would enable me to do more in my own land-grant college at the university there.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that not illustrate the old saying that in unity there is strength? Where you combine the economic efforts, or any other efforts of a group, you are in a position to get results that you cannot individually get.

Again I refer to my previous statement that if there is any violation of any constitutional rights, it is not in this method or in this means. It would be in the administration of the institution after the institution was erected and functioning; is that right?

Dr. PATY. Entirely so.

Senator HOLLAND. And, Mr. Chairman, that would still be subject to the requirements of the law as it may be interpreted from time to time by our courts.

Dr. PATY. Mr. Chairman, I might say that there were several days of discussion recently, which culminated in our endorsement of this plan to pool the resources of the South to do a better job for our youth in the South. That is all we are asking for.

The political, the economic, and the social problems as well as all those problems are tied, of course, into any step we are trying to take, but the purpose we are after is the purpose of enabling us to pool tax resources and other resources to offer to all of our youth a better opportunity.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Doctor.

Dr. PATY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Dr. Harold Stoke? I hear no response, so I assume he is not here.

Dr. CLIDE A. ERWIN?

Governor CALDWELL. Dr. Erwin could not be here, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Dr. M. D. Collins?

I hear no response, so I assume he is not here.

State Senator A. A. Frederick?

Governor CALDWELL. I do not believe he came.

Senator HOLLAND. I think that concludes our list.

Governor CALDWELL. Mr. Chairman, may I comnient on the wire which you just read?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I did not introduce it into the record. I just wanted to get the last witness's opinion on it.

Dr. PATY. Our land grant college is undergoing a very extensive study and survey that has been provided for by one of the foundations. I do not know the result of that survey. I do not believe it has been completed yet. That is for the information of your committee.

There is a study being carried on studying the Negro Land Grant Association. I am sure representatives from that would be able to answer whether there has been any result yet published by that study. The CHAIRMAN. I want to say in response to your statement, Governor, that, living in the North, and only in a casual way getting acquainted with the problems of the South, but having been for 9 years acquainted with many of your fine Senators and Congressmen, I must say that I am unfamiliar with a great deal of the problems that I ought to be more familiar with. Being chairman of this judiciary committee that has one-third of all the legislation in the Senate, and representing 3,200,000 people in my own State, I was not acquainted with this particular angle of your problem. All I became acquainted with was the wires that came in.

It seemed to me that one of the issues that should be clarified was the one these wires seemed to present.

I want to compliment all the witnesses this morning. I think you have done a very fine job.

Now, if you want to say something in relation to that wire, I will give you the floor.

Governor CALDWELL. In just a half dozen words, I want to say this: That wire indicates the same thing which I have noted before, and that is, that the educators who sent it really do not know just what we are trying to do.

I do not know what they mean by "as a method of equalization," and I am quite certain that if those men hear the plan explained when they appear here before this committee, you will find that they will have little, if any, objection to what the southern compact calls for.

It does not relate in any sense of the word to any "method of equalization." It relates solely to the provision of greater opportunities for all the people of the South for an education.

The CHAIRMAN. Is Congressman Hobbs here? I hear no response, so I assume he is not here.

Dr. John Dale Russell, Office of Education, Federal Security Agency?

STATEMENT OF JOHN DALE RUSSELL, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF HIGHER EDUCATION, UNITED STATES OFFICE OF EDUCATION, FEDERAL SECURITY AGENCY

Dr. RUSSELL. I am aware of the fact that there are a number of implications associated with Senate Joint Resolution 191 which is before your committee today. Some persons have charged that the resolution will tend to imbed the practice of educational segregation of the races more firmly than ever in our society. Others have pointed to the urgent need for additional trained personnel in the professions and have argued that these needs outweigh in importance any effect that such action would have on the principle or practice of segregation. I am, of course, not here to discuss that issue. My testimony will be confined to the question of the educational desirability of providing for the establishment and maintenance of regional institutions, in the support of which two or more States join in order to obtain improved and extended educational services for their citizens, with the least cost to their taxpayers.

The need for regional developments in higher education has been apparent to educators for many years. Great interest was manifest in such possibilities during the 1930's, perhaps as a result of the limited funds available for the support of education during the economic depression. The Association of Governing Boards of State Universities and Allied Institutions took the leadership at that time in considering the problem. That association, representing the interests of practically every State in the field of higher education, adopted a report in 1935 authorizing the appointment of a special committee to

examine the possibilities of effecting economical coordination of those specialized and expensive scientific and educational activities of higher educational institutions, whereby such activities may be developed on a regional rather than a State basis.

Dr. Arthur J. Klein, then dean of the school of education of the Ohio State University, was engaged to make a comprehensive study of the problem. In the Education Record for April 1937, Dr. O. J. Hagen, then a member of the board of regents of the University of Minnesota and president of the Association of Governing Boards of State Universities and Allied Institutions, wrote:

* * *

We are just beginning to awaken to the fact that regionalism as a concept has much significance for us Many colleges and universities are distributed without much rhyme or reason. They overlap, they duplicate, they compete * ** Almost every one of these institutions tries to do its work just as though there were no other institution near it.