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payments for the years they had delayed; and, moreover, the calculations made at any date as to augmentation would be entirely upset by a sudden after-influx of elderly members to share in the funds under Section B, even if they paid all their yearly subscriptions in arrear, with interest. The most favourable terms on which they can with justice be allowed to join the Institution on the common basis are these. They must buy a deferred annuity of £25 at the tabular cost, according to their age. It happens that £25 is the annuity which two guineas yearly will buy when the age at entry is 26, and therefore it will be only fair that all existing clergymen who allow the opportunity now offered them to slip, and all those who in the future take holy orders later in life than usual, should buy an annuity of £25. At the age of 42 this can be done by a first payment of £32 10s. 2d., coupled with subsequent payments of three guineas yearly, or alternatively by equal yearly payments of £5 2s. id. These entrants will then be upon the common basis as regards augmentation. They may buy larger annuities than £25 if they wish, but only the first £25 will receive augmentation.

It may be asked: What is the augmentation, and the consequent uniform pension, likely to be? To this question no answer can be given at the present stage. The augmentation will depend upon the amount of income received under Section B, as compared with the number of parochial clergy who may be, or become, unbeneficed, and it is clear that there will be a mutual reaction continually going on between the three elements of (1) funds at disposal, (2) number of unbeneficed, and (3) amount of pension.

Suppose that sixteen members offer to resign their benefices if they be granted adequate pensions, and that the funds at disposal at the time are such that augmentation of £50 can be given to each of them, this may not induce any of them to resign; but the same funds would suffice to give £100 a year to eight of their number, and this may be a sufficient inducement. This illustration indicates the course which will be followed. No prospective estimates will be formed of what is probable in the distant future, but the course of events will be watched, care always being taken not to spend all the funds upon current annuitants, but reserving the proper sum for giving to all future claimants an uniform pension not less than is being paid to beneficiaries for the time being.

There are certain details which will be studied with more convenience and profit in the prospectus, and upon which it will not, be necessary for me to dwell now. They have reference, for example, to the modes of procedure when a member becomes permanently incapacitated for service before attaining the age of 65, or when he remains vigorous after that age; also when he is unable temporarily to meet his payments, or wishes to reduce or discontinue them altogether; or when he wishes to commute his annuity for a lump sum. All this is explained in the large prospectus, of which copies may be had in the room.

I pass on from that to mention briefly the relation which this Scheme bears to compulsion. It is not opposed to compulsion, on the contrary, it can embrace compulsion if desired, but it does not reckon upon the support of compulsion, and especially it does not delay until it obtains it. I assume that I am precluded by the order of business from going into the question of widows and orphans, and that I must confine my remarks to the subject before the meeting, which is Clergy Pensions only. I shall, therefore, be obliged to omit some observations which I should have made had it been permissible to discuss the subject of widows and orphans also.

What, then, does compulsion mean as regards Clergy Pensions? It may mean that all benefices are to be compelled to contribute alike, and all clergymen to benefit alike. If so, the present Scheme fits exactly, because on this footing everybody will

simply come in under Section A, making equal payments for equal benefits. Or, if while all benefices pay alike, only the unbeneficed are to participate, the scheme is adequate to the occasion again, because this is exactly Section C. If, however, benefices are to contribute unequally, the richest paying most, then let us first suppose that those who vacate the richest livings will receive the largest pensions : this is simply the case of compelling the richer men to buy larger benefits for themselves under Section A. If, however, notwithstanding larger enforced contributions from the richer livings it is intended that all clergymen are to participate, irrespectively of the values of their livings, this simply means that out of every contribution levied from a benefice there is first to be taken a certain sum-the same in every casewhich is to be applied to provide an uniform benefit under Section A, and the balance—that is, the excess from the richer livings-is to go to Section B for general augmentation. In this way the incumbents of the poorer livings will obtain a larger benefit than what the contributions from their benefices pay for, because of the incumbents of the richer livings getting a smaller benefit than what the contributions of their benefices pay for. The scheme is thus seen to be adapted to every supposable mode of applying compulsion.

Here I would point out the only sense in which the compulsory mode is cheaper than the voluntary. If cheaper, it is so to some persons at the expense of others. But the cost of providing a pension is the same whether the funds are furnished voluntarily or compulsorily, and must remain the same so long as the duration of human life and the rate of interest continue to be what they are. At the age of 26, the cost of £100 a-year to begin at 65 is eight guineas yearly, and although a good deal has been said about the compulsory method being cheaper than the voluntary, it would be manifestly absurd if this were to be intended to mean that the cost would be only six guineas a year or perhaps four, if haply the smaller sum were obtained compulsorily. The cost is eight guineas a year, no matter how the money may be obtained, and whoever receives £100 a-year for only two guineas a year paid between 26 and 65, must have six guineas more paid by some one else. And this additional sum of six guineas must be contributed absolutely gratuitously by persons who cannot in any circumstances draw benefit for it. It cannot come from the payments of members who die before reaching the age of 65, because in charging only eight guineas it is expressly reckoned that a number of members will die and leave their contributions behind them for the benefit of those who survive the age of 65. If the survivors did not get this benefit the cost of £100 a-year to them would be fourteen guineas instead of eight. I do not wait to go into all the collateral points here, but merely wish to make it quite clear that it will make no difference to the working of this scheme whether that six guineas is contributed by willing hands or obtained by compulsion. Section B will be there to receive it and to administer it all the same, independently of its source. It will be borne in mind, of course, that the additional six guineas is not wanted in respect of every member who contributes two guineas, but in respect only of the unbeneficed parochial clergy.

There being then in the very nature of things no possibility of difference between the cost of supplying a pension under the voluntary and compulsory modes respectively, the question may be asked, Under which mode is a pension cheaper to the purchaser? The answer is simple. Either mode may be cheaper than the other, or they may be both alike. In the case just mentioned £100 a-year will cost the buyer three guineas a year under the compulsory system, instead of two if the additional sum forcibly obtained is only five guineas yearly instead of six. In short, notwithstanding the oft-repeated assertions in a contrary sense, there is no magic in compulsion

to make any sum of money go farther and do more than the same sum under a voluntary mode.

What, then, is the essential difference between the compulsory and voluntary modes? The only difference lies in the answers to the following question-Who is to pay the extra six guineas of the above illustration.

Compulsionists answer that the payment must be made to fall exclusively upon the clergy, or, perhaps, I should say mainly, because they too admit of legacies and donations, that is, a modicum of what they designate charity. It must be forcibly obtained from the better livings, to be thrown entirely into the general augmentation fund, and it must be obtained from those livings over and above the normal payments which will secure specific benefits for the incumbents of those livings. Now, whatever opinion may be held as to the propriety of compelling the richer incumbents to share their incomes with the poorer, it makes no difference in principle to what period of life this compulsory sharing extends, whether to old age only, or to middle life as well. Compulsion in respect of pensions (or in respect of widows and orphans), is therefore the first step towards throwing the whole incomes of all the clergy into one heap, and making an equal division yearly.

On the other hand, advocates of the scheme as it stands say that the payment of the extra six guineas may properly fall upon the whole Church, laity as well as Clergy, and be contributed voluntarily.

I would repeat that I have understood myself to be precluded from speaking of compulsion in relation to widows and orphans. But I may be permitted to add that I am quite in favour of the inclusion of widows and orphans as early as possible, on the plan described, of definite benefits on business terms being granted under Section A, with augmentation under Section B. Also that the augmentation may either be derived from wealthy clergy and laity voluntarily, or compulsorily from benefices which are held by incumbents whose families are grown up and whose wives are dead, who can, therefore, leave no claimants, and whose payments will consequently cheapen the benefits to others.

That the adoption of some scheme of superannuation for the clergy is inevitable is quite clear. Compulsionists will accept the present scheme as providing in Section B a ready machinery for administering whatever funds can be forcibly obtained, for which no monetary equivalent has to be given at any time. Non-compulsionists will accept this scheme as providing in Section B a machinery for administering whatever funds can be voluntarily obtained without monetary equivalent-I leave to others all reference to the moral equivalent in the improved efficiency of the personnel of the Church's organization-and non-compulsionists, therefore, will be interested in so strengthening Section B voluntarily that compulsion may be ever seen to be totally unnecessary.

It remains to mention the other two sections of the Scheme,-Sections C and D. Section C may be described as a Tontine Fund, under which any future ordinees who wish to do so may make payments, at or shortly after ordination, on the footing that at the age of 65 the beneficed survivors of their number will receive nothing, and the unbeneficed survivors will receive all, in the form of pensions which will be large in amount in proportion to the fewness of the participants in the total accumulated contributions. In each case a deferred annuity of £25 to begin at the age of 65 is to be bought by a single payment which for the age of 25 at entry will be £39 11s. 8d., or by five equivalent yearly payments of £8 11s. od. each, or ten of £4 11s. 6d. each. Then, for example, if out of four survivors at the age of 65 three are beneficed and one is unbeneficed, this one will draw the four annuities, amounting together to £100 a year. It is quite optional to ordinees to join this Section in addition to Section A.

Section D or Benevolent Fund is for those who being more than 65 years of age at the foundation of the Clergy Pensions Institution are too old to join it under Section A. According to the last census the number of clergymen alive at the age of 65 and upwards was 3,269, being more than one-seventh of the number alive at all ages, namely 21,663. As the committee are desirous of recommending only what is clearly practicable, they do not feel warranted in saddling the Institution generally with the burden of providing pensions for the unbeneficed among so large a body of elderly persons, of whom none have contributed to its funds. The Institution however, will constitute an excellent channel through which pensions may be provided either by contributions for the unbeneficed of their number generally, or by specific purchases for particular individuals among them. Contributions for either object will be received and administered under Section D. For 100 a-year for life to a clergyman of the age of 65 the cost is £966 13s. 4d., while if the age be 70 it is £797 18s. 8d.; and with a duly organised Institution, such as this will be, to direct attention to the subject, it may be hoped that not a few congregations will avail themselves of the facilities furnished under Section D. Should death supervene in any such case shortly after the purchase of an annuity, there will be at least this redeeming consideration that the price will not have been paid away to the Government or elsewhere, and that the unconsumed balance will enhance the benefits of those who remain.

As regards the immediate future, there has now been issued a printed form of letter, which, upon being filled up and sent to the Honorary Secretary by any clergyman under the age of 65, will constitute an application on his part to be admitted as an Original Member of the Clergy Pensions Institution on the special terms already explained, and without entrance fee. These applications should be sent in without delay. After a brief interval, sufficient to make the matter completely known, the list of original members will be closed.

The applications will then be examined, and, if sufficiently numerous, and, also, if a tangible sum be derived from extraneous contributions-of which there is already every prospect-steps will be taken to complete the business organisation of the Institution.

As regards the constitution and legal status of the Clergy Pensions Institution, the nature of its constitution will be practically the same as that of a mutual insurance or provident society, under the administration of a board of directors of influence and business experience, and having no shareholders or capital like a joint stock company. No promotion money will be paid at the formation, nor dividends from profits afterwards, but the whole clear income, after meeting necessary expenses, will be devoted to the beneficiaries. It is intended to register the Institution under The Companies' Acts 1862 to 1883, by which it will at once be incorporated, with perpetual succession and a common seal, a status which will give certain important facilities in working. That this course is practicable for an Institution such as this, in which there are no shareholders, is evident from the fact that it has been taken within the last few months by two of the old and wealthy mutual life assurance societies in London.

Such, then, is the Scheme of the Clergy Pensions Institution. It has been thought well to begin with Clergy Pensions as being not only the most pressing, but also the safest and simplest thing-for it will be readily understood that Pensions are different from sums payable at death in this important respect, that there cannot be a sudden rush of claims to swallow up the funds. But this is only the beginning, and the ultimate aim is to provide on a business footing for all the material necessities of the clergy, apart from those of their working years to which their stipends apply. If the clergy will sacrifice a portion of their stipends, and if wealthy churchmen will now

found endowments for pensions, just as their ancestors did for salaries, the Clergy Pensions Institution has great possibilities of usefulness before it, and may well become and go down to posterity as a most valuable, while independent, business auxiliary to the ecclesiastical organisation of the Church.

DISCUSSION.

The CHAIRMAN.

A QUESTION has been handed to me asking whether in the event of the death of a member occurring before the age of sixty-five any return will be made to the widow or representative of such member. What is your opinion as to that Mr. Duncan?

JOHN DUNCAN, Esq.

On the scale which has been drawn up no return will be made. Eight guineas is the amount required for £100. We would want fourteen guineas a year instead of eight if there was to be a return of the premium paid should death take place before a member had reached 65 years of age. In arriving at the figure of eight guineas it has been reckoned on the basis that more than a half will die. As a matter of fact about 460 out of 1,000 persons would live to the age of 65. The rates before the meeting, and shewn on the tables in the room, are not calculated by me; they are taken from the Government quotations. Supposing a member lives he gets his annuity all the cheaper. Supposing one man pays eight guineas, and another fourteen guineas, the one who pays the larger premium gets a return of the premium (or rather his representatives get it) if he should die before the age of 65; but if they both live each gets £100 a year, although one has only paid eight guineas and the other fourteen guineas. It will, therefore, be seen that in one case it is a disadvantage if a member dies before the age of 65, and a disadvantage in the other if he lives more than that number of years.

The Rev. W. SADLER, Rector of Dembleby, Folkingham.

OTHERS will doubtless express the thanks due to the gentlemen who have introduced the subject. Having been a member of the committee, which drew up the scheme just unfolded to us, I wish to state the objections some of us have to it. First, let me say, this is a question to be settled by the great body of the clergy. We have been told of bishops favouring a voluntary system as opposed to a compulsory fund. What else could they do? It is a question of clerical ways and means which they may well prefer to leave to us. As such a question then, I have always advocated the selection by the committee Mr. Robinson represents of two schemes, the best voluntary and the best compulsory one, to be laid before every rural deanery. I am convinced that no institution of a society like that just proposed will solve the question of national clergy pensions. The proposal is imperfect, because it defers the question of the widows and orphans, because it turns again to that which is a standing failurea system of charity,-because it overlooks that one element of success which the history of all such efforts as this points to, viz., that a general or national fund must be compulsory. Is it just towards those who give and who have to support all the manifold work of the Church in these days, that we should ask for further assistance before we have found the limit of good our present clerical charities can attain to? Mr. O'Donoghue's book tells us of funded property of £1,382,739, and a rent roll of £10,000 a year possessed by 88 of our charities. In all it tells us of 227 clerical

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