HEALTH ACTIVITIES OF THE GENERAL GOVERNMENT.

COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE AND FOREIGN COMMERCE
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

Washington, D. C., Wednesday, January 18, 1911. The committee met this day at 10 o'clock, a. m., Hon. Irving P. Wanger in the chair; later the chairman, Hon. James R. Mann, presiding.

Mr. WANGER. Now, Mr. Gordon.

STATEMENT OF H. L. GORDON, ESQ., OF CINCINNATI, OHIO.

Mr. GORDON. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, before addressing myself to the bill under consideration, I have been requested by the officers of the National League for Medical Freedom, whom I represent, to correct, so far as it can be corrected, an injustice that was done the chairman of this committee and the members of the committee through a misunderstanding. On the 7th of January there was a meeting between your chairman and two representatives of the National League for Medical Freedom, at which meeting the impression was gained on the one side that there would be no immediate action on the bill, and an understanding on the other that there was no opposition, or would be no opposition, from the league to this particular bill. By reason of that misunderstanding there was a telegram sent out, when they discovered through the newspapers that the committee had reported this measure, to the various members of the league, which brought about the telegrams asking for a hearing; that message having given the impression that this committee had refused a hearing. That impression they have tried to correct, and they desired me to make such amends as could be made to this committee for this mistake. The league feels that they have always been treated with courteousness and consideration by this committee, and that, had a suggestion at the time been made. to the chairman that a hearing was desired, it would have been granted, as hearings have been granted heretofore, and as this hearing is granted now.

Mr. STEVENS. Is there any objection to inserting in the record the telegram that was sent out to your organization, so that we can know what kind of information was given at that time?

Mr. GORDON. I think there is no objection, Mr. Chairman. officers will furnish it, and it may go into the record.

The

Now, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, this bill which is now up for consideration seems to have as one of its principal provisions a provision for the increase of salaries to the men connected with the Public Health and Marine-Hospital Service. I desire to say in the

beginning that, except as to the questioning that always arises when there is a bill that provides for larger expenditures of money, there is no objection on the part of the people who appear here to that provision. We feel that the Members of Congress themselves are in a position to determine whether or not the men who are now drawing salaries in this department are entitled to an increase, and if the committee and Congress feel that they are so entitled, we are not here to protest against that provision in the bill.

Mr. STEVENS. I think we ought to make a record here, Mr. Chairman, of the fact that somebody had appeared before this committee who does not favor an increase in public expenditures. This is the first time that I recall where an instance of that kind has occurred. [Laughter.]

Mr. GORDON. I am very glad, Mr. Chairman, to go on record as being opposed personally to the general proposition of increasing public expenditures. However, as to this bill, which I have no hesitancy in saying at first reading appears to be one to which very little objection would be made, there are yet provisions in it that appear most objectionable upon investigation and study, and it is to those provisions that I now desire to address myself.

In the first place, gentlemen, one of the provisions of this bill is: "The Public Health Service may study and investigate the diseases of man." Now, it will be observed by that language that a very general power is conferred upon the Public Health Service without any restriction and without any limitations whatsoever. Indeed, we think it can be properly stated that if upon the Public Health Service is conferred the power which goes with that language, then, in the exercise of that power, there are absolutely no limitations to the extent to which the representatives of the Public Health Service can go. It can not properly be claimed that this power is conferred upon them in order that they may study and investigate those diseases which are properly understood to be contagious diseases, for the fact is that the report of these men who are now connected with the Public Health and Marine-Hospital Service shows that they are already investigating, and have investigated, through the powers which they have or which they assume to have, the various contagious diseases which have been prevalent at various times throughout this country.

It is not provided by the language of this bill that the representatives of the Public Health Service may only investigate such contagious and infectious diseases. It is not provided that there shall be any public demand or necessity for such investigations. It is not provided, gentlemen, that in cases where the public health may be threatened by some outbreak of some uncontrollable disease which threatens the serious obstruction to interstate commerce, the Federal authorities may step in and in the exercise of their powers assist the local authorities to stamp out such disease, but it is provided that whenever and in making this statement I believe I am clearly within the force of the language used which I am discussing-it is provided that whenever in the judgment of the men in charge of the activities of this particular department it is desirable to investigate any disease, such power is given to them, carried to its full extremity. It is difficult for a layman like myself to understand how the Members of Congress and how the members of this committee should

feel that they are called upon to place such power in the hands of any Federal representatives, or the representatives of the Federal Government. I do not believe that I have stated the case too strongly when I say that giving to the Public Health Service the authority which this language gives opens the doors of every home in this country to the representatives of that particular branch of the Federal Government, and authorizes them to investigate any personal disease or personal sickness, wherever it may be.

Mr. STEVENS. Just explain how that is.

Mr. GORDON. Yes; I will do that, and I will follow that later in more detail. I want to say to the committee that if at any time I seem to be too general in my statements I will be glad if you will interrupt me. Under this bill, as it is now framed, there are no restrictions or limitions put upon the men who are to determine the necessity of these investigations. If this language means anything, it means that the representatives of this particular department may, at any place and at any time and in any manner that their judgment indicates it should be done, investigate the diseases of man. I find no restriction there. We all understand, and it is simply superfluous for me to argue to this committee, that the only power that the Federal Government or Congress has or can assume to have over the health of its citizens arises under the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution, and if that be true-and it is undisputed that that is true-without that you gentlemen would not be considering this bill or any bill of a similar nature.

Mr. ESCH. Is there any warrant for the authority to give effect to the public-welfare clause?

Mr. GORDON. Yes; giving this language the full limit of what it might be that this committee meant, that if the public welfare demanded it, who is to determine under this bill why or how or when the public welfare shall demand investigations of this kind?

Mr. ADAMSON. Can you refer us to any paragraph in the Constitution which prohibits us from acquiring information upon any such question?

Mr. GORDON. I can only say as to that, that while I am not in a position at this time to refer you to any provision of that kind, and while it has been held, and properly so, in all probability, that information may be disseminated as it is disseminated from various departments for the information of the people, yet

Mr. ADAMSON. Is there anything in the language you are talking about that provides for anything in the world except trying to learn something?

Mr. GORDON. Yes; I think there is.

Mr. ADAMSON. What is it?

Mr. GORDON. I think when this bill provides that they shall have power to investigate the diseases of man without any restrictions or limitations, that that involves something much more than merely trying to learn something.

Mr. ADAMSON. There are already limitations enough on the power to acquire knowledge without this committee attempting to add additional ones.

Mr. GORDON. I can not answer that, because I do not know what limitations there are on the power to acquire knowledge. My understanding was that in this country there was absolutely no limitation as to the power to acquire knowledge.

Mr. ADAMSON. Human conditions impose some restrictions, as I understand, according to the doctrine of predestination and preordination. Unless there is some provision in the Constitution prohibiting the exercise of the powers that we have, I would like to have some information on the line you are talking on. I think I should go as far as anybody else in opposing an attempt on the part of the Federal Government to do anything on the face of the earth in the way of exercising powers except those that are strictly delegated to it. I think I would go as far as anybody in the world. But this is the verdict of a jury, reached unanimously after hearing everybody who could speak of this subject. We understand the difference between acquiring knowledge of a fact and the compulsory use of that knowledge when it is acquired. We believe in acquiring all possible information and in letting everybody use it that can. Now, if there is any provision in the Constitution prohibiting that, I would like to know it.

Mr. GORDON. I am not here to deny that the Federal Government has, under certain limitations, the right to disseminate certain information, and I believe that when I have finished you will at least see how this appeals to me. Whether, when I have finished, I have made any impression on this committee, or given you any reason against it which you think is worth considering in connection with this bill, remains to be seen.

Mr. ADAMSON. I have attempted for a hundred times in the last 15 years to make to this committee the same argument that you are making now against unwarranted extensions of the exercise of Federal authority, but I am impelled to admit that if the Federal Government sought to go no further than to post itself about conditions and to acquire and dispense information, I would have to stop. Mr. GORDON. To begin with, Mr. Congressman, I do not believe this bill stops at that point. To begin with, I do not believe that it can be properly argued that if this bill is passed the power of these people is limited in the manner that you have just suggested. I believe that if this is passed in its present shape the representatives of this department-and I expect to argue on that line a little laterwould have the power, not only to report the results of their investigations, but also report the suggestions they desire to make, in order to remove the results which they have discovered.

Mr. ADAMSON. I did not ask you the question to disturb you, but because I thought you had invited it.

Mr. GORDON. I had not intended to argue that from the standpoint that the laws of this kind were unconstitutional, because in looking over the record I have discovered that you have already had presented to you, as forcibly or more forcibly than I could present them, the arguments along that line as against legislation of this kind.

Mr. SIMS. Is your objection confined altogether to the first section? Mr. GORDON. Yes. I was stating at the beginning that we were making no objection to the increase of salaries if in the judgment of this committee and of Congress that was the thing to be done.

Mr. SIMS. Do you object to the Federal agencies investigating the question of stream pollution?

Mr. GORDON. I do not personally object to it, but later on I expect to say something on that clause of the bill with relation to the investigation of the pollution of streams.