Mr. PARSONS. There is a good deal of complaint about the Yellowstone Park to the effect that if you want to hire horses from any other place than the Mammoth Hot Springs, you are a long time in getting them, and are generally inconvenienced.

Mr. POTTER. That is because other people do not find it profitable to operate horses at the prices the Government restricts them to; but they are perfectly free to do so if they wish to. If the Government allowed the railroad company to operate automobiles, it would allow any one else to operate them. There is no monopoly of it at all. Mr. VOLSTEAD. If they operated an automobile over a railway track, I presume there would not be much trouble about that; but I would not be in favor of using the government roads over there for a railAs long as we built them and have gone to that expense, I way. think we ought to maintain them. I think we ought to have a trolley line through there. I have been through the Yellowstone Park twice. There is a good deal of that country which is not very interesting, while there is very much of it that is; and if there were a trolley line through the park you could spend very much more time at the points of interest, and it would be more convenient and easy to go through.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further, Mr. Potter?

Mr. POTTER. There is only one other thing, in reference to the statement that Mr. McVean had given his approval to this project. I can not find anything of official record to that effect. Mr. McVean himself is now on furlough; and I take it for granted that any approval which he did give was merely informal, and simply expressing his personal opinion about it.

The CHAIRMAN. That would not influence the committee one way or the other.

Mr. SMITH. Mr. Potter, I have never seen that country and do not know anything about it. With reference to this road along the crest of the canyon, would it be feasible to operate automobiles along there on a good roadbed, rather than stage coaches?

Mr. POTTER. I think it would.

Mr. SMITH. The grades would not prevent anything of that kind? Mr. POTTER. No, sir. It is a comparatively level country.

Mr. SMITH. Then it becomes chiefly a question, it seems to me, as to whether we will operate an automobile on a dirt road or operate some kind of a motor car on a steel road. Is not that the question? Mr. POTTER. Practically; yes, sir.

Mr. SMITH. I imagine that in that locality, where feed is scarce and must be very high, the horse will soon be supplanted by the automobile. Then it becomes a question of whether you will operate an automobile on a dirt roadbed or whether you will put down a pair of steel rails to operate it on.

Mr. POTTER. That would be true; yes, sir.

Mr. SMITH. The matter of presenting something to the view would not be a factor in so large a problem as that. So if the Government were going to construct and operate a road, it would weigh the cost and the merits of the steel road, and decide whether it would build that or whether it would build and operate a macadam road to put automobiles on.

Mr. POTTER. But in the construction of either kind of road, Mr. Smith, the timber which is now there should not be removed. The

road should be constructed so that it would not be necessary to remove the timber-that is, to any great extent.

Mr. SMITH. I do not know anything about the fact as to the timber. Then the other question will be whether the Government shall build and operate the road along there, or whether it shall let private enterprise do it.

Mr. POTTER. That is the idea; yes-whether you should encourage private exploitation of the scenery there.

Mr. SMITH. I think everybody will agree that if we allow an individual to build and operate a road he must do it under restrictions. Somebody must regulate his charges and see that his service is fair, and such as the people deserve. I do not understand that the Santa Fe Railroad cuts any particular figure in this question, because it hauls the people in there as a common carrier.

Mr. POTTER. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. SMITH. And whoever might use the road after they got in there would be patrons of the Santa Fe.

Mr. FERRIS. There was some testimony given at the early part of the hearing to the effect that they do interfere with other people; that they can not do any business there.

Mr. SMITH. The Santa Fe, being a common carrier, could not keep from hauling people there who might want to go in and thereafter ride in my automobile, or yours, if we had an automobile line. Mr. NEAL. They have the transportation.

Mr. SMITH. They have now, yes; but we are endeavoring to develop a new public transportation service there, either by the Government or by private enterprise.

Mr. POTTER. Are there any other questions, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. FERRIS. Just one general question: Do you not think there is a great deal in the contention that an improvement of this character would really make the park more available, would really be an asset to the park, rather than destroying or departing from the conservation standpoint in any way?

Mr. POTTER. No; I doubt very much if it would.

Mr. FERRIS. You doubt that very much?

Mr. POTTER. Yes, sir; I doubt very much if it would.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think as many people would go and take the trip to Grand View Point over a wagon road as would go on a trolley line?

Mr. POTTER. No, sir; I do not.

The CHAIRMAN. Are we not after "the greatest good to the greatest number?"

Mr. POTTER. Possibly so. I think, though, that with good roads you would have practically as many people going into the canyon, and that they would see enough of it to satisfy themselves.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but we do not want to rob any American citizen of the opportunity to see Grand View Point.

Mr. TAYLOR. Tell us, Mr. Potter, what would be the reason for the Government spending $100,000 in order to do something that is not as good as a private corporation is willing to do without the Government spending anything, and that will be more convenient to the public if it can be arranged in a way that will safeguard the public interests and not be handing out a plum to the Santa Fe

Railroad or somebody else? If that can be arranged definitely, why is it not a better scheme than spending the Government's money? Mr. POTTER. If you could exercise the same control and supervision over it, it might be. But if the Government builds the roads it will have absolute control over them, and it will not establish a precedent which will place it under obligations to allow other people to acquire the same kind of rights. The granting of privileges or rights of way to private corporations would not make it possible for the Government to exercise the same control, and it would place you under obligations to approve other similar projects when they are presented.

Mr. TAYLOR. Is not that a system that ought to be worked out by your department for the benefit of the general public in such a way as to protect the Government's rights, too? Why would not that be a good enterprise for your department to engage in, rather than transferring it to this committee?

Mr. POTTER. That is what we have been trying to do.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think it would be wise for the Government to build and operate this trolley line?

Mr. POTTER. I would not recommend that it should do that; no, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You think, however, that it would be well for the Government to build and maintain a road?

Mr. POTTER. A wagon road; yes, sir. That would be open to everybody, and could be used with any kind of vehicle-either a saddle horse or a carriage or a cart or anything else.

Mr. VOLSTEAD. Would not a road operated like this be open to everybody, and would not it be open, in all probability, at half the cost, or pretty close to half the cost, that would be involved if the Government should construct it?

Mr. POTTER. If you went in and hired your outfit there, it would; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not think anybody would take an outfit into the Grand Canyon, do you?

Mr. POTTER. They do not do so now, for the reason, I think, that they can hire the outfit at the canyon cheaper than they can get their own outfit in; and that would probably be true if Mr. Öppmann constructed the road.

The CHAIRMAN. The point where an outfit can be obtained is so distant that it makes the cost prohibitive?

Mr. POTTER. To be sure; that is true.

Mr. TAYLOR. And a trolley line, or something of that sort, would be in use at all seasons of the year. The reason I spoke as I did was that I went down there when it was all sleet, and a mule could not stand up. As a matter of fact, he was smooth shod, and it was worth a man's life down that kind of a place at that time.

to go

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Potter, a trolley line along the brink of the canyon would not involve the destruction of any more trees or any more timber than a wagon road, would it?

Mr. POTTER. Why, no, it would not, if the wagon road were built on the same survey.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course the wagon road would have to be farther back from the brink of the canyon in many places, because it would

be dangerous to run as near the brink of the canyon with a wagon road as you can with a trolley.

Mr. POTTER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That being the case, the wagon road being farther back, its construction would result in the destruction of more trees than in the case of the trolley, would it not?

Mr. POTTER. You mean if you cleared away all the trees between it and the brink?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; or merely through the clearing of the trees from the right of way, because the forest, as I understand it, as in the case of all similar canyons, is much more scrubby and sparse and thin on the brink of the canyon than it is farther back.

Mr. POTTER. Yes; that is true; but of course in building the wagon road they could turn around

The CHAIRMAN. And miss a tree?

Mr. POTTER. And dodge a tree better than they could with a trolley road.

Mr. TAYLOR. Those trees are not very valuable trees, are they, anyhow, on the brink of the canyon? They are scrub pine, and so on, are they not?

Mr. POTTER. Yes; yellow pine and cedars. We do not want to cut them down any more than is absolutely necessary, because we want to preserve the canyon in its natural condition.

Mr. TAYLOR. But you would not get very many saw logs out of many of those trees, would you?

Mr. POTTER. No. We would not make many timber sales in there. The CHAIRMAN. Then, as I understand it, the only objection, from the standpoint of your department, to the building of a trolley line along the brink of this canyon would be, first, that you might not have complete control. Of course, it is easy to obviate that by providing for complete control. Second, that Congress might be importuned to grant similar rights elsewhere?

Mr. POTTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. TAYLOR. If the rights were sufficiently guarded, there would not be any special reason why they should not be granted elsewhere, would there?

Mr. POTTER. Well, that is where we object. I do not believe it would be advisable to make extensive improvements of this kind in the Grand Canyon, because if it were done it would interfere with the scenic beauty. In other words, we do not want to make a Coney Island out of it.

Mr. TAYLOR. You would not want a dozen lines down there, of

course.

Mr. POTTER. No, sir; of course not. But that is going to the other extreme.

The CHAIRMAN. If you could give everybody that goes to Coney Island an opportunity to view the grandeur of the Grand Canyon, I believe I would be glad to do it. I believe that marvelous view of nature's handiwork would be rather more elevating than the "shootthe-chute," the "devil's slide," and all that sort of thing.

Mr. HERRICK. May I say a word about the "Coney Island" matter, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. That is not important for the record, I think.

Mr. HERRICK. I simply wish to state that when Mr. Oppmann went to see Mr. Ripley and spent several days with him, trying to get him to withdraw the opposition of the Santa Fe road to this project, Mr. Ripley made the statement that Mr. Oppmann was simply going to establish a Coney Island down there a beer garden. Apparently that was founded on the fact that Mr. Oppmann is a retired brewer. But ever since then, when this thing comes up, Mr. Garfield brings up the "Coney Island" matter and Mr. Pinchot brings up "Coney Island." I do not know what connection there is, but there seems to be an unconscious influence of some kind.

Mr. POTTER. It would not be safe, then, for me to claim the remark as original.

Mr. VOLSTEAD. If we can make it as popular as Coney Island, I think it is all right.

The CHAIRMAN. The departments may be more aristocratic in their taste; but those of us who represent the common people are looking out for the interests of the ordinary citizen.

STATEMENT OF MR. E. C. FINNEY, ASSISTANT TO THE SECRETARY OF THE INTERIOR.

Mr. FINNEY. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the interest of the Interior Department in this matter arises largely from the fact that there is a bill pending (S. 5938) which proposes to transform this monument into a national park. That bill has the indorsement of the President, the Secretary of the Interior, the Secretary of Agriculture, and the governor of Arizona. We hope and believe that this canyon will be created into a park. Therefore we are interested as to whether any rights of way shall be granted.

Mr. TAYLOR. Tell us what the difference is, and what the object of the bill is.

Mr. FINNEY. National parks are authorized by special acts of Congress. They are supposed to be playgrounds of the people, where nature's wonders are preserved in a natural state. The national monument act, as I understand it, was designed to protect American antiquities, such as the cliff dwellings.

Mr. TAYLOR. Both have the same general object, have they not; only one is done by executive order?

Mr. PARSONS. What is the difference in administration?

Mr. FINNEY. The national monument is restricted by law to just so much of an area as is necessary to protect the historic ruin, or whatever there is to be protected.

Mr. TAYLOR. But within what is set apart by proclamation, what is the difference between the administration of the two?

Mr. FINNEY. The national monument, when within a forest reserve is under the jurisdiction of the Department of Agriculture.

The CHAIRMAN. The national monument legislation was intended as has been stated, for the preservation of antiquities; and there are no regulations under which anything can be done in a national monument except to preserve the antiquities.

Mr. FINNEY. Also, under the laws relating to national parks we are able, I think, to provide better accommodations for visitors; we are able to build roads, put up buildings and lease privileges within the parks.