adopted another emblem. We have done just as well in proportion in those countries with the red chain as we have done in this country with the red cross.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, the red chain is just about as good as the red cross, then, for a trade-mark?

Mr. PERRY. It is, if you started with it, and if your advertising was of it, and if your merchandising was devoted to it, and the public had learned to associate your product with the red chain, but in this country they have learned to associate Johnson & Johnson products with the red cross.

Mr. EATON. Do you sell any of your products to the American Red Cross?

Mr. PERRY. I do not think that we do at the present time; in any event we do not furnish the products for the American National Red Cross packaged-goods line. I think that they buy from a competitor. Mr. EATON. What symbol does the competitor use?

Mr. PERRY. I really do not know what their symbol is. I know that in 1914 and 1915-I only happen to have those two catalogs and price lists here they are the price lists of the American National Red Cross on the products that they sold in 1914 and 1915, in the surgical-dressing field, and it said that they are made by Bauer & Black-that is our principal competitor.

Of course, Bauer & Black at one time attempted to use the red cross. In 1894 we started litigation and in 1898 the Circuit Court of Appeals of the Northern District of Illinois gave us a decree stopping them from using the red cross.

Mr. JOHNSON. You heard Mr. C. P. Carter's suggestions this morning about certain changes in the law that he thought might be helpful. Have you anything to say with reference to those suggestions?

Mr. PERRY. Only that I had not seen them or heard of them, nor had any discussion with respect to them, until I heard them read this morning. I am sure that they take good care of Mr. Carter's client, which makes one product, which is a toothache drop, but I do not know how good they are or how effective they are or harmful they are for other companies.

Mr. JOHNSON. I will say this in reference to Mr. Carter: That I think that his statement with reference to those suggested changesthat I asked him yesterday if he would not prepare some suggested changes and they are not with reference to his client, but for the country's good, so I do not think that he should be charged with having offered those simply to help his client.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think, Mr. Perry, that Mr. Carter gave testimony for any particular client, but I think his testimony was that what amendments might be helpful to clear the situation that the committee has under consideration at the present time.

Mr. JOHNSON. I know that he was actuated not with reference to his client's interests but for the country's good.

Mr. PERRY. My comment was without any animus; it was that I have not seen them, and I have not studied them, and I have not had an opportunity to consider them from the angle of Johnson & Johnson. Mr. JOHNSON. You do not know whether they would hurt you or help you, but what about the country's welfare, speaking as a citizen and not as a representative of Johnson & Johnson?

Mr. PERRY. Well, I cannot address myself hypothetically to 12 separate items, each of which involves a very careful study of the language used, as well as the thought behind it. Generally, I thought the suggestions were good.

Mr. EBERHARTER. I would like to just ask the gentleman a question: How long will it take you, Mr. Perry, to look over those 12 suggestions made by Mr. Carter, and give the committee the benefit of your thought on them?

Could you do that by next week?

Mr. PERRY. Oh, very easily. It is just a question of a couple of hours.

Mr. EBERHARTER. Then, Mr. Chairman, I will ask unanimous consent that the witness be permitted to file a statement next week.

The CHAIRMAN. For the record or for the benefit of the committee? Mr. EBERHARTER. For the record, I think.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us get them first and then consider whether we want to put them in the record.

Mr. EBERHARTER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Perry, you heard the request of Mr. Eberharter. Would you kindly look over the suggestions made, and write your criticism with reference to the different suggestions made, for the benefit of the committee?

Mr. PERRY. I would be very glad to, but I would like to say one thing before I have finished on that one point, and that is that the language that is employed in the drafting of a thought would be extremely important, of course; the thought may be easy to grasp, as applied to any given situation, but the particular way in which the language is drawn will be extremely important. I just want to make that reservation.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that the committee understands that, of

course.

Mr. VORYS. I wonder if I could ask another question: Mr. Perry, we have had some talk here as to how many pre-1905 organizations there are that are still using the red cross symbol, and I wonder if from your studies you have found the answer to that?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I believe that I have; at least as close as I think anybody in the United States can come, and I believe that it would not exceed 10; I believe it is around 8 to 10, and I am positive it does not exceed 15.

That is, in interstate commerce.

Now, there may be small intrastate commerce users, drug stores, local outfits, that I do not know about but I am now referring to manufacturers in interstate commerce.

I have personally handled red cross cases since December 1, 1934, and I have counted my figures to see how many have arisen in that time. We have 500 salesmen in the field, and every one has instructions to pick up any red cross use, send it in immediately with an exhibit and a full story.

The record shows that over a period of 8 years there are 59 files; and on most of them I have communicated with Mr. Hughes.

I want to say, too, that Mr. Fitzpatrick and I occasionally have gone in foreign States, and investigated personally and in great detail. We took one trip to Jacksonville, Fla., Mobile, Ala., and as far as St.

Louis, and all of the States in that community, to investigate. We found the original users, we took affidavits, and we found original exhibits, and we put those in a folder with the exhibits, and sent a copy to Mr. Hughes for the use of the Department of Justice or whatever use he cared to make of it.

Mr. VORYS. Of those 8, 10, or not over 15 users, your company is by far the largest in sales volume; is not that true?

Mr. PERRY. I believe that its volume is larger than the total of all of the others combined.

Mr. VORYS. Could I read something which may have a bearing on that from Colonel Hartfield's testimony, page 108 of the 1919 hearing:

Mr. HARTFIELD. We have constant applications asking for permission to divide profits, and in order that we should not be parties to creating the impression that we are interested in these enterprises, in our own magazine we have refused advertisements from Johnson & Johnson, and from everyone else. For instance, I am told they offered to give us a substantial Red Cross Magazine advertising contract, and we also had a similar offer from a Red Cross shoe concern that manufactures shoes in Cincinnati, but we have consistently refused to lend ourselves to any of these commercial ventures.

I wondered if that line of thought was still current, that between those who used the red cross commercially and the American Red Cross, any business dealings back and forth might be misinterpreted? Mr. PERRY. I think, sir, that that may be true. I personally have done, and know that others in our organization have done, everything that they possibly could to overcome it, and, of course, we have felt very bad about the fact that the American Red Cross has really endorsed the product of Bauer & Black, our principal competitor, in its own price lists.

They are right here available. It says:

The first-aid department desires to bring to the attention of practicing physicians, and of people engaged in railroading, mining, manufacturing, etc., as well as the general public, the various books and outfits which it has prepared in connection with its first-aid work throughout the country. This catalog describes those which at the present time are ready for delivery. Others may be prepared in the future. It is believed that the public will appreciate the value represented by the articles described herein. They are modern, practical, clean, simple, of the best quality, and the prices are extremely reasonable-in fact, only a few cents above the cost in each case.

Special outfits to suit almost any purpose will be prepared upon request, and the First Aid Department of the Red Cross solicits correspondence to this end. Many large corporations have been furnished with first aid boxes or cabinets to suit their particular needs.

And you look inside and you see the products made by Bauer & Black prominently displayed right on the face of the product.

Mr. VORYS. Is there any example like that, which sounds very shocking to me, in recent years?

Mr. PERRY. Í do not know. I believe the Red Cross is at present distributing first-aid kits to the highway first-aid depots; I understand that their products are bought from Mine Safety Appliance, a competitor, and I do not know whether they are sold to those stations and I do not know whether there is a price list. Mr. Hughes could probably answer that.

Mr. SHANLEY. Is there any bidding?

Mr. PERRY. No; if there is bidding, I know that we are not invited to bid. We would be delighted to furnish it, and of course we do

make very, very substantial contributions to the Red Cross, and we have never refused an appeal. If they have any disaster-or foreign country shipment-we always give what they ask, and very generously, and it has amounted to a great many thousands of dollars.

Mr. EBERHARTER. I just want to call attention at this point that I asked specifically of the witness for the American National Red Cross whether or not they had ever endorsed any item, and the answer was in two different instances, "No; not to their knowledge."

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Judge Eberharter, do you want to ask a question?

Mr. EBERHARTER. No.

Mr. TINKHAM. May Mr. Holmes, who testified yesterday, have the same right in relation to the suggestions of Mr. Carter, to submit suggestions or comments to the committee?

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, it is so ordered.

Mr. VORYS. I do not know that Mr. Jacobs, counsel for the Red Cross Shoe Co., is here, but that company comes from Ohio, and I want to make sure that they have a right to make any comments on the suggestions.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the gentleman will be requested to make any comments he may desire.

Mr. PERRY. If I may ask, if it is permissible, I would be very happy to communicate with counsel for each party that has appeared here, so that what comes out may be an expression of all, if that would be of any assistance.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair feels, and I think the committee will join with the Chair in his views with reference to this matter, that we would like to have the different opinions; we would not like to have you get together and find out what is the best interests of you folks, together, and we would rather have the opinions of the different gentlemen who have testified sent to the committee, without any consultation between each other.

Of course, if you want to speak to Mr. Carter about it, and get his views of exactly what he meant, why, that, I guess, would be all right. The requests, I believe, of Mr. Tinkham and Mr. Vorys are that the committee itself should determine the benefit, of the gentlemen who testified, with reference to the suggested amendments offered by Mr. Carter.

Is that the idea?

Mr. TINKHAM. That is right.

Mr. VORYS. That is the idea, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, that request will be granted. Mr. VORYS. I want to say one thing; while I do not think that the committee should necessarily invite these gentlemen to collaborate, the committee certainly would not wish what is going on here to indicate that there would be any objection to their discussing matters on the outside, any way they pleased.

The CHAIRMAN. I just say this: I think if we can get four or five or six different opinions from the gentlemen who are supposed to be experts, in their testimony here, if we could get their own opinions, without talking to one another, I think the committee will get a much better opinion as regards these different suggestions, and I would suggest to Mr. Perry, if you will kindly give the names of the people

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that should be invited to give their views with reference to these amendments, why then the committee itself would request that they take the amendments as suggested by Mr. Carter, and bring their comments to the committee, and let the committee decide just what it wants to do, with reference to this suggestion.

If there is no objection to that, it is so ordered.

Mr. WASIELEWSKI. Would it be proper to ask Mr. Hughes, on behalf of the Red Cross, to give his reaction to those?

The CHAIRMAN. We will be delighted for anyone; that would be fine.

I think that Mr. Hackworth or anyone else, the gentlemen from the Department of Justice, if they wish to do that, I think.

The clerk will be so instructed.

Dr. Eaton and seconded by Mr. Shanley. They say we are seeking light.

Mr. PERRY. May I also pass out these exhibits? These are competing products. I think anyone will note that from a distance he would be very apt to get the impression that that is a red cross. We picked these up last night here in Washington, and we did not bring them with us. This is the Johnson & Johnson one.

I had occasion to go across to France for the company in 1938 and dispose of a couple of interests. One was in the sanitary-napkin business, and one was in the pharmaceutical business. I have been interested in the statements by the Department of State and by others that France prohibits the use of the red cross.

Their statute, in fact, prohibits the manufacture and use of products with the red cross unless intended for export, but there is no prohibition against their finding their way into the French local markets.

In the drug stores of Paris, in the surgical-dressings field, fully 20 percent of the products bear a red cross. Now, I did not bring these back with this in mind. I called back to our laboratory to see if they had any samples of the stuff that I brought back from France, and here are three of them that I have right here. There is the red cross. The CHAIRMAN. When was that made?

Mr. PERRY. I brought this from Paris in 1938. Here is another one. I just picked these up because they happened to be odd types of sanitary napkins, and not because they bore the red cross. If I had wanted to bring back samples of the red cross I could have brought back a shipload.

That is a French product manufactured in France. It has the red cross on both ends, and, as I say, many products in France use the red cross in the surgical-dressing line.

Mr. JOHNSON. There is one question that I would like to ask. Some witness testified before our committee, and I cannot remember now who it was, but I think it was with reference to your company having a large sign in the drug store of a red cross, or something like that. What are the facts about that?

Mr. PERRY. I think, sir, that Mr. Hughes referred or someone did to a large red cross on the prescription counter of the Walgreen drug stores, and it is one of the things that we are stopping, and in fact I do not care to say too much about it, but it will be stopped. It is an infringement, an improper use under present law, and we are working on it and have been for months.