Mr. WASIELEWSKI. Mr. Rosenberg, you have mentioned that your company had manufactured book matches with advertising for the slae of bonds and savings stamps and things of that kind?

Mr. ROSENBERG, Yes, sir.

Mr. WASIELEWSKI. On these same matches, did you also have advertisements of the Red Cross cough drops and Red Cross sirups? Mr. ROSENBERG. No; not to my knowledge. That is a full cover. Mr. WASIELEWSKI. It is only devoted merely to that?

Mr. ROSENBERG. It is devoted merely to the sale of bonds and stamps.

Mr. WASIELEWSKI. Then that really was not a matter

Mr. ROSENBERG (interposing). Inside and outside, as a matter of fact.

Mr. WASIELEWSKI. That was really, then, the contribution of the Universal Match Co., and not of the Red Cross cough drops or anything of that kind.

Mr. KEE. Mr. Rosenberg, how many matches of this kind did you manufacture on the order of the Red Cross?

Mr. ROSENBERG. How many have been; I said that the order calls for 500,000 books. There have been deliveries made against it. Mr. KEE. When was that order placed?

Mr. ROSENBERG. Either late October or early November, of 1941. Mr. KEE. Is the insignia you are using on this cover as ordered by the Red Cross, the same insignia you use on the other products that you are manufacturing and selling, under the Red Cross insignia? Is it identical to this?

Mr. ROSENBERG. You mean in shape or size?

Mr. KEE. Identical in form?

Mr. ROSENBERG. I do not know. Here is the one that we use.

Mr. KEE. It is practically the same.

Mr. ROSENBERG. I would say that ours was in use prior, ours went out prior to the time that we received the order.

Mr. KEE. I mean, that you are using the same insignia.

Mr. ROSENBERG. We were using it before we got the order from the American Red Cross.

Mr. KEE. On your articles of merchandise, that you are selling under the insignia, you are selling the same thing that you are using on the matches that you manufactured for the Red Cross."

Mr. ROSENBERG. That is at their request.

Mr. KEE. That is all.

Mr. STEARNS. I would just like to ask one question.

I do not suppose that you have delved so deeply into history, but did you ever hear of the use of the red cross as an advertising symbol before its adoption by the International Red Cross, in 1864?

Mr. ROSENBERG. Frankly, I have not gone into the history of it, but I think from what information-this is, hearsay-that this dates back long prior to 1864, centuries, as a matter of fact, prior to 1864. Mr. STEARNS. But it has been used in this country since that time, and would you question the fact that the use of the red cross, the Greek red cross, by the International and the American Red Cross Societies, was what gave it its value before the public?

Mr. ROSENBERG. I would say that that is a very debatable question. I should like to discuss that, I mean, if there was a debate on it,

and I know that there are men who have made a study of it, as to whether or not the Red Cross Society was responsible for building that, or whether some of these firms who have used it and use it ethically have helped to place some value on the trade-mark.

The CHAIRMAN. The value is there today, you will admit that. Mr. ROSENBERG. I will say that 55 or 60 years of consistent pounding on anything will make it valuable.

The CHAIRMAN. But it is there.

Mr. ROSENBERG. We would assume so. We grant it is.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it not a fact, just yes
Mr. ROSENBERG. I say, "Yes."

The CHAIRMAN. I want to get that yes.
Mr. ROSENBERG. Yes.

or no?

Mr. EBERHARTER. I believe that you stated before how many million books of matches the Universal Match Co. manufactured containing these various slogans helpful to the war effort. How many 'millions was that?

Mr. ROSENBERG. In total, it was up to early May, about 238,000,000. Mr. EBERHARTER. They were all manufactured by the Universal Match Co.?

Mr. ROSENBERG. That is correct.

Mr. EBERHARTER. Did the Universal Match Co. give any of these books away?

Mr. ROSENBERG. You mean the finished product?

Mr. EBERHARTER. Yes; did they give any of these millions of books that you manfactured, that you say were helpful to the war effort, did they give any of them away?

Mr. ROSENBERG. Well, I can state a particular case, and this came up yesterday, we had a call from the American Red Cross Society, the Chicago office, and they solicited a contribution of 15,000 books of matches.

The CHAIRMAN. Explain what you mean by "books."

Mr. ROSENBERG. Fifteen thousand of these books, with samples of the Red Cross cough drops, that they would like to include in kits that they are preparing for free distribution, and they particularly asked whether we could furnish them with the matches that carry the Red Cross cough drops ad.

The CHAIRMAN. Was that a verbal conversation?

Mr. ROSENBERG. This was a phone conversation which has since been checked, and the woman's name in Chicago who made the request was Mrs. McHugh, but we sent her six cases of matches with the "Purchase Defense Bonds."

The CHAIRMAN. That is, how many books?

Mr. ROSENBERG. Fifteen thousand books. We had no samples of cough drops, you see, but we gave them to her gratis, as a contribution.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any other agency or person that you gave any of these books, of these many millions?

Mr. ROSENBERG. I dare say that there must be; I could check our records; I am reasonably certain that in the various cities where we are operating, on a national scale, that we do get these requests continuously for distribution.

The CHAIRMAN. The vote has started in the House, and it is 20 minutes past 11.

Now, I do not know that there are any further questions that anyone wants to ask Mr. Rosenberg. If so, could you be back tomorrow morning, Mr. Rosenberg?

Mr. ROSENBERG. It is going to be very difficult. I have been here since Monday morning.

Mr. EBERHARTER. I would like to ask one or two questions.

The CHAIRMAN. All right; it is all right with me. Go ahead, then.

Mr. EBERHARTER. Then, of these millions of books that you manufactured, the only ones that you gave away, were in response to special requests?

Mr. ROSENBERG. That is correct.

Mr. EBERHARTER. Of some individual or some organization?
Mr. ROSENBERG, That is correct.

Mr. EBERHARTER. And all of the others you sold to various business concerns or organizations?

Mr. ROSENBERG. No; they are sold through the wholesale outlets. Mr. EBERHARTER. Whom did your company sell them to?

Mr. ROSENBERG. They would go, for instance, to People's Drug Stores here, who in turn, distribute them to you, as a purchaser of tobacco products; they give them to you.

Mr. EBERHARTER. In other words, your company sold practically all of these matches for general use of the public?

Mr. ROSENBERG. That is right.

Mr. EBERHARTER. Through regular channels of trade?

Mr. ROSENBERG. Only that we do not get the revenue for the space, which normally is sold to a national advertiser or an advertiser.

Mr. EBERHARTER. Well, when you sell those matches, no matter what slogan they have on them, you do not reduce the price just simply because they have that slogan on, do you?

Mr. ROSENBERG. No.

Mr. EBERHARTER. You get full price for them?

Mr. ROSENBERG. No; the price for those matches is based on the sale of the space on that cover for advertising purposes.

Mr. EBERHARTER. Well, then, what is the difference between the price of, say, 2,500 matches with one of these slogans on and the name of a business concern?

Mr. ROSENBERG. Well, there is considerable difference, sir.
Mr. EBERHARTER. You sell them at a different price?

Mr. ROSENBERG. Certainly. It is the difference between a tailormade suit and a ready-made suit. If you want something that we have to print special for your requirements, that means setting up special type.

Mr. EBERHARTER. How much difference is there in that?
Mr. ROSENBERG. Much depends on quantity, type of design.
Mr. EBERHARTER. Only the difference of setting up the type, is it

not?

Mr. ROSENBERG. Oh, no; there is art work involved in most of these jobs, where a set of plates alone may involve a hundred dollars, so if you apply that $100 against an order for 100,000 books, we will say, you have $1 per thousand charge right there for nothing but plates.

Mr. EBERHARTER. And the only reason that you get more money for the ones having a particular advertisement on is because it costs your firm more to manufacture them then?

Mr. ROSENBERG. No.

Mr. EBERHARTER. Well, you just said it costs more to set them cause there is art work.

up be

Mr. ROSENBERG. Well, but if we sell a concern 100,000,000 books, with an ad, do you not see that cost becomes very infinitesimal per thousand books, you understand.

Mr. EBERHARTER. That is right.

Mr. ROSENBERG. Now, we do not take advertising contracts for 100,000 books. The majority of those national accounts, as I mentioned here, run into large quantities. Take a firm like Wrigley would put out as many as six to eight hundred million and maybe a billion books in each year.

Mr. EBERHARTER. I am through.

Mr. JONKMAN. Is it not true that your matches as an advertising medium to the public is exercised in at least two ways-one, to give it away with merchandise, and the other to put the advertising medium on it, that is also paid for in a different way?

Mr. ROSENBERG. That is correct. It is two different sales.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?

Mr. JARMAN. I would like to ask one question: Suppose that you have an order for a billion books of matches from Wrigley, does not the price of those books then become about the same as your general slogan match?

Mr. ROSENBERG. It is about the same.

Mr. JARMAN. In other words, the jobber pays about the same price; he pays the same price whether he gets a book of matches carrying the slogan, "Purchase Defense bonds," or whether it carries an advertisement of Wrigley, or Luden's, or anybody else, any other national firm?

There would only be a difference of price in smaller quantities?

Mr. ROSENBERG. But the difference to us is that we have not collected the revenue for that space, when we put the matches out with "Defense bonds," and "Paralysis," and anything else, do you not see? In other words, that is a contribution on our part. We are contributing that

space.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you a question: What do you sell that Red Cross match there to the store for? You have got that American Red Cross.

Mr. ROSENBERG. You mean this one? We do not sell this to the store. The CHAIRMAN. What does the American Red Cross pay for that? Mr. ROSENBERG. I think around

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). What is your price if you were to sell it?

Mr. ROSENBERG. In quantity, say

The CHAIRMAN. Well, say, in the 1,000,000.

Mr. ROSENBERG. I have not got a price schedule here with me. The CHAIRMAN. Well, what I am trying to do for the benefit of the committee is to get your price on that for the American Red Cross; there is no advertising on it, and then what would you sell that for, at the same quantity, to stores? That is what the committee, I think, wants to get.

Mr. ROSENBERG. The facts are that this would not be sold that way, because the quantity, if it were 500,000 or a million, it would not be an advertising contract.

Mr. VORYS. Can the witness answer that very definite question? The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rosenberg, I think that I could answer it, but I am not in the match business, but the question is this:

Members of Congress who get out a match for their campaign purposes, we will say, now, you charge the Member of Congress-suppose the regular price was $1-you charge the Member of Congress 50 cents and then you sell that to the drug store or the cigar store for the balance of the 50 cents. Is that the idea, so as to get your $1?

Mr. ROSENBERG. That is approximately correct. As I said before▬▬ The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Why could you not answer my question?

Mr. ROSENBERG. Because you are asking me specifically for the price.

The CHAIRMAN. No; make it any price.

Now, you take any price that you want to put on that, and then, comparatively speaking, what would you charge for an ad match? I think that that is what Mr. Jonkman and Mr. Eberharter want to know.

Mr. JONKMAN. I can see where the witness cannot answer that directly, because if I buy them I distribute them myself, and if a great big advertising concern buys them, they have them distributed through the drug store.

Mr. ROSENBERG. They have no voice in the distribution.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you this: We have been talking about matches here, and I am more interested in the product of the Red Cross cough drops and the Red Cross cough sirup, and the other things.

Now, the committee must be on the floor to vote, so we must recess now. I do not like to have you leave this committee without giving us the facts with reference to these different questions that they asked you, and I would like to have you get those, so as to be back here tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock, and try to give the members of the committee the information they are seeking regarding this

matter.

This match question, let me say to you, Mr. Rosenberg, has been a very serious question, and I think for the sake of the legislation that we have before us that we ought to have the information. The committee stands in recess until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

Please be on time, gentlemen, so that we can proceed promptly. The witnesses will kindly return tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. (Whereupon at 11:35 a. m. the committee adjourned until 10 a. m., tomorrow, Wednesday, May 27, 1942.)