today, every single year from 1898 until now, you will see this Red Cross shoe mark there, and that is 1908. There is the Red Cross shoe, and there is the mark, and the Red Cross shoe and the mark, all the way through 1909, 1910, 1911, 1912, and year after year. Mr. EBERHARTER. I might interrupt, I noted none of your advertisements there have the red cross. Mr. STERN. Every one of them has the Red Cross shoe mark. Mr. STERN. Every one of them has. Mr. EBERHARTER. But it is in black. Mr. STERN. Because these are, of course, photostatic copies of advertisements in magazines. Mr. EBERHARTER. And in the magazines the cross is red? Mr. STERN. If the magazine advertisement is a black-and-white advertisement, the cross, of course, is black, and if it is a colored advertisement, the cross, of course, would be red, but I will show you one later on if you care to see it. But again may I repeat, year after year, and every year right straight through, you will find the advertising of the Red Cross shoe just exactly the same as it appeared when first this shoe was introduced to the women of America. If you want this book left as evidence, we will be very happy to leave it, sir. Now, I would like to offer this, if I may, please, a pair of Red Cross shoes, and I think this more clearly than anything that I might say will demonstrate to you the real loss that our organization might take if this name was taken away from us, and the hardships that it would place not alone upon the men and women who work for us but upon the thousands of merchants throughout the country. Now, this is an identical pair of shoes. There is the trade-mark on this shoe, and here is the same shoe without that trade-mark. This is the only insurance policy that these millions of women have that they are securing Red Cross shoes. The CHAIRMAN. Do you only put it on one shoe? Mr. STERN. No, sir; I have done this for a demonstration. We always put it on both shoes, but to try and show this committee the tremendous value of this name on a shoe I have had, what we say, as "buffed" off the bottom, cleaned off the bottom of this shoe and left the mark on the other one. It is the same as "sterling" on silver. You would not think of going in and buying silver if it did not have the trade-mark on it. I do not care what mark would be on it, you would not have the confidence in it. It is the same as this Red Cross shoe mark; you would not pay the same price nor would you have the confidence in the same identical shoe without the label. The CHAIRMAN. What volume do you do a year? Mr. STERN. In dollars and cents, a little over $12,000,000. We have run our business as an institution, and because of the stability of our company we still run this business as an institution, and I would like to read a pledge of our organization: To all who sell, to all who make, to all who wear Red Cross shoes, this pledge is given To put into Red Cross shoes only the best of mind, of men, and of materials, and to so make Red Cross shoes that every participant in their production shall be proud of his handiwork, and glad to acknowledge it to all the world, to so make Red Cross shoes that they will constitute a source of lasting success to every merchant who sells them and of lasting satisfactory service to every woman who wears them, to adhere steadfastly to policies which will protect the good name of the Red Cross shoe, and daily enhance its prestige everywhere; in short, to so make Red Cross shoes that they shall become a synonym throughout the length and breadth of the land for all that is both worthy in shoecraft, in shoe selling, and in shoe service. This is the pledge which the United States Shoe Corporation extends to the men and women who make Red Cross shoes, to the merchants who sell them, and to the women who wear them, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. We cannot calculate what the good will of Red Cross shoes is worth, our business was built on faith, no person has ever complained about a Red Cross shoe without our sincere attempt to help them. Millions of women look for this name and have faith and knowledge that they are buying a product that is backed by stability. Our entire efforts in all of these years has been built around this name on a shoe. Gentlemen, the good will which has been built for these many years, the investments that have been made for these many years, the thousands and thousands of men and women who have skilled themselves in our factory, in the making of shoes, and who are dependent entirely on the Red Cross shoes for their livelihood, the thousands of merchants throughout the country who in turn employ thousands of retail shoe clerks, and they are dependent upon Red Cross shoes, all of this simply cannot be done over again. Thank you, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions? Mr. EATON. I would like to ask the witness, of course, he is a young man, but have you any idea just why the company chose this trademark, this particular red cross? Mr. STERN. I happen to come from four generations of shoemakers in Cincinnati, it happens that Irving Krohn, at the present time park commissioner of Cincinnati, was the man who thought of this name, and he was the first one to place it on a shoe. Mr. EATON. Why did you put this particular symbol? Mr. STERN. During those years, there was just about one kind of shoe made, and it was a shoe like this, this black shoe and this brown shoe, maybe had a little rounder toe, and maybe one had a trifle lower heel, and he thought it was an excellent name for a shoe. Mr. EATON. It was evidently a very excellent name, but why did he choose that, why was it excellent? Mr. STERN. You mean the name Red Cross for the shoe? Mr. EATON. Yes. Mr. STERN. Well, I will be very happy to ask him for you, sir. Mr. EATON. But you do not know of your own knowledge just what that symbol was chosen for? Mr. STERN. No; I could imagine. Mr. EATON. Well now, regarding the wonderful sale of your product, is that due to the symbol on the bottom of the shoe, or the quality of shoe itself and the good salesmanship that you evidently have? Mr. STERN. I think it is due to a lot of reasons, I think it is due to hard work, I think it is due to the quality of the shoe, and I think it is mainly due to the goodwill which this symbol has brought about through advertising through all of these years, and to answer you specifically for one particular reason, unquestionably the goodwill that has been brought about through advertising this product, and backing it up with a fair product. Mr. EATON. Of course, the ladies would not buy the shoe if they did not like it, and they probably never turn them up to see what is on the sole. Mr. STERN. There I cannot agree with you, I am sorry that I cannot agree with you. They would not buy the shoe unless they turned it up to see what was on the sole. If you care to go into a shoe store, you will find a woman will come in and say, "I want a pair of Red Cross shoes," and the clerk will say, "This is a pair of Red Cross shoes." Mrs. BOLTON. May I ask the witness if he would finish his sentence, he said that he could imagine a reason. Would you be willing to tell us what you will imagine to have been the reason? Mr. STERN. I would be glad to, Mrs. Bolton, if I could be permitted to imagine someone else's thoughts. Comfort was primarily a requisite of shoes, for many, many years, and in the old days they were known as a comfort type of shoes, that is 35, 40, or 50 years ago, those were comfort shoes. Mr. SHANLEY. Mr. Witness, did you hear the lieutenant colonel testify? Mr. STERN. Yes. Mr. SHANLEY. In looking back over your factory, can you think of any signs that might be observed from the air? Mr. STERN. There might have been, but from the air directly down, no; but I know of a sort of water tank where we have got Red Cross shoes, and the symbol that we have, yes. Mr. SHANLEY. Would it be a hardship to eliminate that? Mr. STERN. It would be a simple matter. Mr. SHANLEY. You think industry would be tickled to death to eliminate it. Mr. STERN. We would be glad to. Mr. SHANLEY. The only other type of advertising that I can think of would be outdoor advertising, and if you had to do that you would have to wipe the Red Cross seal off the boards themselves, I mean that would be carrying this to an absurdity. If you had your big Red Cross seal on a huge outdoor board, and someone thought that was being an undue use of the seal, that criticism would also be against the Red Cross itself. Mr. STERN. Of course, that could be eliminated if it was done, and the colonel mentioned some things that had not been done, but if that had been done, if there could be such advertising, that could be easily eliminated, I am sure. Mr. SHANLEY. And anything of that nature would not embarrass your industry. Mr. STERN. Not a bit. Mr. EATON. As long as the symbol is on the sole of the shoe, will that attract the enemy's attention? Mr. STERN. No. Mr. VORYS. Mr. Stern, I find in what is purported to be a list of registered trade-marks, here is one, Krohn Fechheimer, ladies' leather shoes, 124,550 is the number of the trade-mark, registered February 25, 1919, date since in use, October 18, 1898. Was that your trade-mark? Mr. STERN. We are successor to the Krohn, Fechheimer Co.; yes. Mr. VORYS. Then I find another one, J. K. Krieg, boots, shoes, and shoelaces, registered January 20, 1891, date since in use, November 1, 1889. That is the use of the Maltese cross, red, and these are just words of description. Would that be a predecessor of yours, or what? Did you have any registration prior to 1919, or do you know? Mr. STERN. Oh, yes; Mr. Allen, our trade-mark attorney, will answer that. I am quite sure that you will be satisfied with his answers. The CHAIRMAN. He had better answer that now if you wish to get it in at this place. STATEMENT OF ERASTUS S. ALLEN, COUNSEL TO UNITED STATES SHOE CORPORATION, CINCINNATI, OHIO Mr. ALLEN. Well, the Krieg mark was registered in the Patent Office, but it is our understanding that it never was used on shoes. I think that in that list there are a number of such cases. They are not predecessors of ours, and it is our understanding, we have a signed document from them, that they had never used the mark on shoes. The document is dated Oct. 16th, 1903. I think that there is something very confusing in that long list of registrations, because the members of this committee would think that all of those various marks are in use. As a matter of fact, I think that there are only seven or eight concerns who use the red cross for marking their goods, and that list is really not illustrative of the condition in the industry. Mr. JONKMAN. You mean on shoes or altogether? Mr. ALLEN. Altogether. Mr. VORYS. There is another list that was in the hearings-I just found these lists here-and in the second list, which was furnished by Mr. Davis, the chairman of the Red Cross committee, which purports to be a registered trade-mark, United States Patent Office, in which the symbol or name of the Red Cross appears, down on that list is this one that I referred to, No. 124,550, the Krohn, Fechheimer Co., ladies' leather shoes, February 25, 1919, date since in use October 1898. Is that your trade-mark? Mr. ALLEN. That is the United States Shoe Corporation trade-mark; it has been renewed; it was assigned to the United States Shoe Corporation when they took over that business, and it has since been renewed. Mr. VORYS. But there was no registration of it prior to 1919? Mr. ALLEN. That is correct. Mr. EATON. Perhaps this gentleman could tell us what were the considerations governing the choice of this trade-mark 44 years ago. The CHAIRMAN. Do you wish to answer that? Mr. ALLEN. I can only guess, but I think that the Red Cross shoe trade-mark would have been just as valuable if it had been a Red Star shoe trade-mark. As a matter of fact, we have had a number of instances, for example, with Macy's, in New York, trying, we thought, to capitalize on the Red Cross shoe-they started out with a Red Star shoe department-and when we explained the facts to them they desisted from doing that. I think that the mark would have been just as valuable had it been a red-star mark instead of a red cross. The CHAIRMAN. You mean if you had used the same kind of advertising for all of these years, but you have not said that. There is a reason for it. Mr. ALLEN. I mean if they had used the same kind of advertising throughout all of these years and the same business methods. The CHAIRMAN. Well now, I think for the record-the question Mr. Vorys asked you-I believe that you had registered this first in 1919 as a trade-mark. Mr. ALLEN. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. If you had registered it in 1919, how do you come within this law at all? You must have registered before 1905 to come within the present law. Mr. ALLEN. No; that is not my understanding of the law. Mr. ALLEN. Only that it must have been used prior to 1905-that is what is provided for-to entitle you to register it, and whether you waited 20 years and registered it, or whether you waited 30 years and registered it; if you provided proof that you had used it continuously from prior to 1905, you would be entitled to secure a registration. Mr. JONKMAN. By registration you could not take it away from a user, if he did prove his use before that. Mr. ALLEN. The registration, as far as conveying any property right, unless it includes the business and good will, conveys nothing; it is the use of the mark on the goods which builds up the property right, and the registration is purely a formal recording in the Patent Office of your rights, on the basis of which they grant you a registration. The CHAIRMAN. That is provided you are doing business in interstate commerce. Mr. ALLEN. Yes; provided you allege that you are doing business in interstate commerce. Mr. VORYS. But you have shown evidence here these ads of continuous use since 1902, is that right? Mr. ALLEN. Yes; our usage goes back to 1898. Mr. VORYS. This particular series of ads is continuous from 1902, the ones that you have just shown here. Mr. ALLEN. Yes; that is the reason that we had that book made up, because we thought that that question might be of interest. CONTINUATION OF THE STATEMENT OF JOSEPH S. STERN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES SHOE CORPORATION, CINCINNATI, OHIO Mr. EBERHARTER. I have just a few questions of Mr. Stern. Mr. Stern, I think that you said on several occasions the company had been offered large sums of money to use this trade-mark. Mr. STERN. We have been approached by a number of organizations; for instance, the women's house slipper incident; of course, you are quite familiar with women's house slippers, which might be in the general category of women's shoes, but we would not even place our trade-mark on a woman's house slipper. |