Senator THOMAS. Of course, you never finish anything until after you start it, and if you start it once, it is easy enough to get it finished; in other words, the camel has to get his nose under the tent before he gets his hump under. If we got some of these projects started, I could get a pretty good idea of how we can get the project finished. General SCHLEY. If we once start a project, we try to allot as much as we can, in order that the project can proceed in an orderly manner to completion.

Senator HAYDEN. That is sound business policy, because dragging a project along adds to the overhead expense.

General SCHLEY. It does, sir.

EFFECT ON PROPOSED CONSTRUCTION OPERATIONS FOR 1941 UNDER BUDGET ESTIMATE

Senator HAYDEN. Captain Reber, what will be the effect on your proposed construction operations for the fiscal year 1941 if you are limited to $70,000,000 for flood control (general) for that year?

Captain REBER. With an appropriation of $70,000,000, Senator, for flood control (general), it will be necessary for the Department to slow down appreciably its rate of construction on projects now under way or scheduled for initiation during the remainder of this fiscal year. In addition, only a small number of new projects can be started during the fiscal year 1941 under the provision for initiation of such new projects in the War Department civil appropriation bill as it was actually passed by the House. The reduction in the rate of construction does not, however, tell the complete story. With an appropriation of $70,000,000 it will unquestionably be necessary for the Department to cut down on the present rate of construction progress in carrying out its entire flood-control program.

Present indications are that design as well as construction personnel will have to be laid off. This will seriously curtail the activities of our districts. In the past 3 years, design and construction forces have been carefully trained and built up to carry on flood-control work at the rate which we are now going in the present fiscal year Much of this work is highly specialized and requires intensive training and technical knowledge. The loss at this time of design personnel will be a serious handicap in carrying out the essential planning for new projects, with the result that such projects probably cannot be placed under construction, when funds for such work become available in the future, until new design forces are again built up.

Careful studies in the Office of the Chief of Engineers now indicate that under the limitation of $70,000,000 the carrying on of construction at a satisfactory rate on projects now under way will require the Department to take available funds now set up for the initiation of a number of projects this spring and to transfer those funds to projects now under construction. Such action is necesssry because sufficient funds for that purpose cannot be allotted in the fiscal year 1941 under the limitation of $70,000,000.

FLOOD-CONTROL APPROPRIATIONS IN PRIOR YEARS

Senator HAYDEN. How does the appropriation of $70,000,000 compare with the average sums of money that have been appropriated

in past years? You state that you have built up an organization on a higher basis. Now, how long have you had that higher basis?

Captain REBER. Only in the last 2 years, sir. We have only really received appropriations for flood control (general) starting with the fiscal year 1938. We have only had 3 years of flood control (general) appropriations.

General SCHLEY. You see, flood control (general) was first authorized in 1936. The first appropriation was in the calendar year 1937, so we have built up the entire organization since 1937.

ESTIMATES SUBMITTED TO BUDGET BUREAU

Senator MCNARY. May I ask what was the preliminary estimate made to the Bureau of the Budget by the Board of Army Engineers? General SCHLEY. We were limited in our estimate submitted to the Budget. We were told not to submit anything greater than $70,000,000. I beg your pardon. That was "Navigation." "Navigation' was $30,000,000. That amount was given to us before we submitted our figures. In the case of flood control, $206,624,000 was presented. Of course, as you understand, the Federal Government has launched on a very big undertaking in general flood control throughout the country, so that the requirements would naturally increase over the period of years when we were building up the organization to meet the problem.

LIMITATION IN BILL ON AMOUNT AVAILABLE FOR PROJECTS ON ACCOUNT OF WHICH ALLOTMENTS HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN MADE

Senator HAYDEN. One further question. The War Department civil appropriation bill for the fiscal year 1941, as it passed the House, contained the provision that "not to exceed $58,125,780 of the $70,000,000 appropriated therefor for general flood control projects shall be available for expenditure upon projects on account of which allotments heretofore have been made." How will this provision affect your construction program as set up under the original Budget limitation of $70,000,000? Also tell me how many new projects can be initiated with the money set aside by this provision for such projects?

Captain REBER. This provision will further reduce the rate of construction on projects now under way or scheduled for initiation during the present spring. In order to start 6 new projects, the names of which General Schley gave you a short time ago, it will be necessary for the Department to curtail or suspend activities on 20 projects which we had set up in our House list.

Senator MCNARY. Will the appropriation of $70,000,000 suggested by the Budget and sent to the House deter you in any of the work now in progress on flood control?

Captain REBER. Yes, sir; it will.

General SCHLEY. It would have prevented us from commencing new projects if the House had followed our suggestion.

Senator MCNARY. Prevented? For instance, that word is sometimes carelessly used; not by you gentlemen, however. I am not speaking about a unit of a project. Are you speaking in that connection?

General SCHLEY. I am speaking of a unit, yes.

Senator MCNARY. There is a project in itself, recognized by its adoption. Then there are various units to be considered. Applying my question to that illustration, what curtailment would there be in the work undertaken on the projects which you now have in mind if the $70,000,000 is the limit of the appropriation?

General SCHLEY. Yes; there would be some projects which we cannot commence, but the limitation applies more generally to units, as you mention. Many new units or projects already under way cannot be completed and also some projects which have never been touched can't be put under way. It also, of course, slows down these projects under way.

APPROPRIATIONS FOR FLOOD CONTROL, 1925-40

Senator THOMAS. In order that our record may be complete, without objection, I would like the Senate hearings to show table X, on page 141 of the House hearings. That total gives the amount of money appropriated each year for flood control and improvements from 1925 to 1940, inclusive.

(The table above referred to is as follows:)

TABLE X.-Appropriations for flood-control work from 1925 to 1940, inclusive

Includes regular appropriations. Public Works Administration and Emergency Reconstruction Administration funds, and appropriations for emergency work on tributaries of the Mississippi River. ? Includes regular appropriations and National Industrial Recovery Administration, Public Works Administration, and Einergency Reconstruction Administration funds.

ALLOCATION OF FUNDS FOR FLOOD CONTROL UNDER BILL AS PASSED BY

HOUSE

Senator THOMAS. Then following that table, I would like to have the record show the table on pages 4, 5, and 6 of the House report. As I understand, that table shows the break-down of the $70,000,000 proposed to be appropriated by this table, is that correct?

General SCHLEY. Well, yes, Senator, except that that must be amended by these new ones which I read to you. Wouldn't you like me to submit a list similar to that but amended to include them?

Senator THOMAS. Unless we provide more money, you cannot do any more work than is provided in this table.

General SCHLEY. We can't do any more work, but, according to the House, we would reduce the amounts on 20 projects and add the 6 that I read to you a few moments ago.

Senator THOMAS. What I would like to have is a list of the projects that will be prosecuted under the terms of the House bill as it finally

passed the House. Then I would like to have, supplementing that, your recommendations for additional projects. But that will take additional money, as I understand.

General SCHLEY. It will, sir.

Senator THOMAS. Then, if you will, undertake that and set forth in a table similar to that in the House report the projects that can be prosecuted with the funds carried by the House; second, submit your recommendations for additional money, and then a break-down of that additional money if carried in the amended bill.

General SCHLEY. Have you in mind some total for that additional fund?

Senator THOMAS. That has to be passed on.

We would like to

get your recommendations and we must act on your recommendations. We cannot do much until we get your recommendation.

(The tables referred to are as follows:)

FLOOD CONTROL

Statement showing the proposed application of funds included in Budget estimate for fiscal year 1941-Flood-control projects

North Atlantic Division:

South Atlantic Division: