The Hiflory of the Proceedings and Debates of the firft Selon of the Houfe of Commons of the fifteenth Parliament of Great Britain, appointed to be held at Westminster, on Tuesday, October 31, 1780, T [Continued from our laft, p. 212.] Monday, March 19, 1781. HE house having relolved itself into a com mittee, lord North went into his propoSon refpecting the cuties on paper. He did not, be laid, intend to raile thofe duties higher; but be meant to establish such regulations, with respect to the collection of them, as should make it produce the fum the leg:flature expected. At prefent, by means of evation, in confequence of defects in the acts, or in confequence of the great improvements in the manufacture of paper, which opened a wide door for evafions, the tax produced infinitely less than parliament intended. la the 10th of queen Anne, a duty of twelve per cent. ad valorem was laid on different kinds of paper; and in the 12th of the fame reign an additional duty of one half of the former tax was impofed; fo that in the whole 18 per cent. ad valtrem was laid on it. But the manner in which the value was to be ascertained opened the door to evasions. The tax was levied according to the price paper bore in the next market-town; and this was to be ascertained by the oath of the manufacturer or his principal work man. Now, there being scarcely any market for paper in England but in London, paper bore no price in the next market town; the manufacturer therefore was at liberty to fix what value he pleafed on his goods; and if his fervant would afcertain that value upon oath, the collector of the tax was obliged not to exact more than 18 per cent, on the valuation. It was, however, evident that the paper, on this account, was always infinitely undervalued. From returns made to him from the Custom-house he could affure the Committee, that the valuations had generally been made at no more than one fourth of the real valse; fometimes a fifth; fometimes at a xth; and iometimes at a feventh or an eighth. It allo frequently happened, that the value being thus fettled by the manufacturer, and not by the price of the London-market, paper of the very fame dimensions and quality was entered by different manufacturers at different prices; by one at is. 6d. a ream, by a fecond at 2s. by a third at 3s. and by a lourth at 48, and they were in fome measure authorized in fo doing, by a defeet in the act of queen Anne, which defcribed the paper by its particular name, but not by its dimenfions; to that, by the various evafions that had been engrafted on this and the other defects, the tax did not produce more than twenty-five thousand pounds a year. To fupply thefe defects he should propofe feveral regulations, which, without levying more than 18 per cent. the duty granted by parlia ment, would greatly increase the public revenue. For this purpose he intended to make a new enumeration of the various kinds of paper. Thole mentioned in the act of queen Anne make no more than eleven kinds; whereas it is well arknown that from the prefent great improvements in that manufacture, there are now co fewer Hib. Mag. May, 1782. than feventy-fix. These he intended to range in five different tables; the first to confift of paper made of the finest rags, and to contain ten kinds; the fecond to confit of paper made of very fine, but not the finest rags, to contain twenty one kinds; the third of good writing paper, to contain thirteen; the fourth of an inferior kind, to contain thirteen; and the fifth to contain nineteen. He should oblige the manufacturer to take his valuation from the London market; and therefore would propose that a duty of aine thillings per ream be laid upon all paper of the denomination contained in the first of the five tables; and in that ratio upon all the others; fo that by this regulation the tax being paid according to the real, not nominal, value fettled by the manufacturer, would produce in the fol lowing proportion:What formerly brought in four pounds odd would in future bring twelvewhat brought in fix would produce eighteenwhat produced leven pounds odd would yield agl. His lordship was aware that means would be fought to evade the regulations, by giving new would be at liberty to pursue their old practice, names to the paper; fo that the manufacturers by entering their paper under names which were not to be found among thofe enumerated in the new act; but to obviate this, it was his intention to defcribe the paper in a double mannerby its name and its dimenfions; and if any paper thould be entered by a name not among the feventy-fix, it was to be taxed according to its quality and dimensions; and if a paper should be offered to be entered of different dimenfions from any defcribed in the new act, it should be fub. ject to the duty levied on the paper next above it in dimenfion. And fill further to fecure the revenue from evasions, he intended to introduce into the excife a practice of the Cuitom-house, which is, that when the owner wears to the value of any goods on which a duty ad valorem is to be railed, if the custom-houfe officer thinke they are undervalued, he may take them to him felt on paying the owner the price he had fixed on them, allowing him ten per cent, profit, By these regulations he hoped he should be able to add greatly to the revenue, without laying any new duty. He could not however tell exaly how much the receipts would be increased by thefe regulations, but from what he had als ready ftated, gentlemen mult tee that a very confiderable increafe would take place. As to ttained or printed paper, he did not mean to subject it to any higher duty than it already paid, viz. three half pence the quare yard; but as he was going to move for leave to repeal the act of queen Anne, he mult, of courfe, infert the arti cle of printed, painted, or stained paper in the new one, though ftill at the old duty. His lord fhip then proceeded to move his relolutions, which he faid were just fourscore in number (at which information the house fet up a loud laugh); one for leave to bring in a bill for repealing the acts of the roth and 12th of queen Anne; another for introducing the Customhouse practice above mentioned; a third for taxing ftained paper as before; feventy-fix refoluti ons for the leventy-fix different kinds of paper which he intended to enumerate; and the last, which made up exstly fourfcore, for impoling the the additional ten per cent. on the whole, which had been impofed on the customs and excife in the last and present feffion. The refolutions were then read, and paffed without the least oppofition. March 20.] Agreed to the report of the refolves of yesterday, for the regulation of the duty on paper, March 21.] The order of the day was read, for the commitment of the bil! for excluding contractors from fitting in the house of commons, except when their contracts are publickly difpofed of to the best bidder. After a long debate the houfe divided, when there appeared for the commitment 100, against it 120. The order of the day was then moved for the reading of the bill to exclude revenue officers from the right of voting at elections. The bill was lost on a divifion, 133 to 87. March 22. No material bufinels. March 23 The clerk of the crown attended according to order, and amended the writ for Edinburgh, by inferting the name of Sir Laurence Dundas inftead of that of Mr. Miller. March 26.] The order of the day being called for, Sir George Savile made his motion relative to the new loan. The talk he had undertaken, he faid, was an embarraffing one, as he was compelled to appear, in fome degree in the light of an acculer, and was to form his ac culation before an audience, which, itself, parti cipated in the crime which was the object of the charge. He begged, however, the house would understand, that he had no evidence at prefent to adduce, nor any confident allertion to make, but merely intended to propofe an enquiry, which might or might not lead to future accufations. Sir George now proceeded to his charges against the Premier, which he grounded on the extravagant terms of the loan, the unequal diftribution of it, and the improper mode of fubmitting it to the confideration of parliament. On each of thefe heads he realoned very ingenioufly, and with moderation, profthing that he afferted nothing abfolutely, but only wished to urge as much as might induce the house to think an enquiry requisite. He concluded with the following motion:" That a committee be appointed to take into confideration the circumftances of the new loan. and report them to the houfe." Mr. Byng feconded the motion. Lord Nugent and the lord Advocate fpoke, and at length a divifion took place, when there appeared for the motion 163; against it 209. March 27] No debate. April 2.] Mr. Duncombe informed the houle, that he had then in his hand a petition from several refpectable gentlemen, who applied to the house for redrels of feveral pub lic grievances. He lamented that his worthy colleague, Sir George Savile, was not able to prefent it, as he had at first defigned to do. He did not mean, he said, to enter into the merits of the petition then, because gentlemen feemed inclined to put off the confideration of it to another day; he therefore only meant, for the prefent, to give his public approbation of its contents; and then moved for leave to bring it PP. Mr. D. P. Coke bore teftimony to the propri. ety of applications to parliament for redress of Mr. T. Powys role next: he affured Mr. Coke, that if the petition was from the delegates, as delegates, he would readily join him in rejecting it; but it was in their individual capacities, as freeholders, that they had figned the petition and, confequently, he hoped his honorable friend would not oppole the introduction of such a petition. Mr. Dunning refrained from entering into the merits of the question then, left what he might fay fhould provoke a debate on the fubject, which it was agreed on all hands not to discuss that day: He contented himself, therefore, with faying, that it was only in their capacity of freeholders, that the delegates had figned the petition; and that from the names that were fubfcribed to it, it claimed every respect, every attention that the houfe could bestow. Mr. Fox role to affert, that as the people of England had a right to petition, fo they had an undoubted right to confer with one another for the purpofe of giving the more weight to their petition, and infuring it fuccefs. He had a right to speak to the people of England whenever he could; he ever would do it, when neceffary; and he would not only maintain that meetings for the purpose of making applications to par liament were legal, but what was still more, con ftitutional and laudable. If these meetings were not legal, why did not ministers interrupt and disperse them?-They did not dare to do it; because they knew that these meetings were coAs to the petivered and shielded by the law. tion, it was certainly figned by the delegates, but by no means in their delegated capacity they applied to parliament merely as individuals i and though he had not a doubt but they might with propriety have fubfcribed as delegates, yet for mere prudential motives the mode had been declined, Mr. Coke rose up a fecond time and faid, as it was not from the delegates, as delegates, that the petition came, he not only could not oppofe ity it, but he would fupport it; for the prayer of it was perfectly agreeable to his principles; but ftill he must add, he faid, that he would never fubfcribe to any opinion, however high, that af ferted the legality of fuch meetings as had been maintained; and that mentioned them as conftitutional. He knew no delegates from the people of England, but those who fat in that boule; and Yorkshire had no occafion for any others, while it was reprefented by fuch upright honeft men as Sir George Savile and Mr. Duncombe. He thought it his duty to difcountenance the meetings of delegates; and though he Was not much accustomed to commend the proceedings of the city of London, still he could not but express his thanks and respect to those citi zens who had fert the delegates out of the city, and refcinded their former refolutions for appoint ing delegates to meet and confer with others deputed by feveral counties in England. The petition was brought up, and ordered, on the motion of Mr. Duncombe, to be on the table. April 3.] Mr. Wilkes made his annual motion for rescinding the refolution relative to the Middlelex election in 1769. Nothing new could be expected in a debate on this fubject. A hearty laugh, however, enfued, on Mr. Wilkes's declaring, that he derived no fmall hope that the motion which he intended to make would pats unanimously, from feeing in the chair a gestieman, whom the noble lord who had recommended him to it, had fo justly praised for his knowledge of the conftitution, and his love for the rights of parliament. [At the time the refolution paffed, Mr. The question being put, the Speaker divided in For the motion 61 116 Sir Fletcher Norton, Mr. Fox, and other gentlemen of the oppofition, divided with the majority. April 4, and 5.] No debate. April 6] Lord North, pursuant to the notice given by hint at the beginning of the week, made his propofition relative to the tax on Tervants. He faid, that when the tax was firft laid on, the gentlemen in the oppofition thought it rated two low at 100,000l. but it had not produced half that fum: nor could he take upon him to fay, that even with the regulation he was going to propefe, it would produce the fum for which it had been originally given. However, he was of opinion, that it would produce confiderably more than it had done in any one year fince it was laid on. The regulation he meant to introduce was, to change the mode of collecting the tax, by taking it out of the hands of the parochial affeffors, and putting it under the board of excife. At present there was but little controul over the collectors of the land tax, who alfo collected the tax upon fervants; there were not perhaps more than three or four perfons in the county, who could check them; but it was far different with refpect to the excife; in every town, in every district, there were officers and furveyors of the excife; and when they should have the collection of the fervants tax, there mufl of courfe be infinitely leis room for evafions than at prefent; the excifeman would be a check upon the mafter; the furveyor upon the excileman. When he mentioned the excite, he defired that gentlemen would not ftartle at the word, as if there was danger of having their houses fearched. He by no means intended to introduce the excife laws, by the new regulation; on the contrary, he meant religi oufly to guard the kufes of individuals from them. The excife officers at prefent collected the coach duty; and as there was a claufe in the act which gave them the collection of it, by which thofe officers were reftrained from entering the house where they went to gather the coach tax, fo he would take care to have a fimilar claufe inferted in the fervants bill, by which means the collection would be benefited, and the pubic preferved from the inconveni ence of excile laws. But this was not the only regulation he intended to propofe to the houte. Gentlemen knew that the tax upon fervants was collected in fuch a manner as to be always one year in arrear; fo that the tax of 1780 was to be collected at the end of 1781: by this cuftom, there would be a year's payment on this tax due at the day of judgment. On the other hand, the coach duty was collected before it was due; and as the excife officer went round to collect the coach tax, he could, at the fame time, without any additional trouble, collect the tax upon fervants. Now, in order to bring the collection of those two taxes within the fame compass, he intended to propole, that in future the fervant's tax, inttead of being a year in arrear, fhould be paid a year in advance, and then the tax might be confidered in the light of a licence, which gentlemen should take out for keeping one or more fervants; to that the fervants and coach tax would be thus colected together. But as this regulation, if unattended with another, would fubject the public to the payment of two taxes for the fame object in the first year, he meant to abolish the old affements, and call upon the people this year for the payment of the year's tax, though not yet due, and at the fame time reniit to them the tax due for the last year; fo that, upon the whole, neither the public nor the revenue would lofe any thing by the regulation. His lordship then moved før leave to bring in a bill for the better collecting and managing the tax upon fervants; which was agreed to without oppofition. Lord North then informed the boufe, that he had another propofition to make, relpecting the fheet almanacks: according to the laws now in being, the theet-almanacks pay a duty of only 2d. and the book almanacks 44. Many complaints, he faid, had been made by the printers of the latter, that the printers of the fheet-almanacks had contrived a variety of matter in a large fheet, folding up almoft in the manner of a book, by which means the fale of the book almanacks was greatly decrcafed, to the lot's of the trader and revenue. To remedy this, he propof ed to equalize the duty on both, by laying an additional duty of 2d. on the sheet-almanacks, the L12 produce T Tuesday, August 8, 1780. HE order of the day being read for a call of the house, Sir Edward Newenham expreffed his furprize, that, on fuch an important occafion, fo few members attended. Something he faid, was neceffary to be done to enforce the attendance of a refpectable meeting, and the house could not do lefs than to refolve, that thofe members who did not attend the call of the houfe that day had betrayed the truft repofed in them. Mr. Grattan faid, that the attendance of the reprefentatives of the people were never more neceffary. It was mentioned abroad with every appearance of foundation that the mutiny bill was to be fent back, but it contained a clause, which rendered it perpetual. The English mutiny bill fet out, he faid, upon the principles of, and with a reference to the great charter; but this was an innovation upon the constitution, and a repeal of Magna Charta. Instead of ridding the people of this kingdom of the fuprema sy of English laws, it was exprefsly making the power of the English parliament perpetual. Under fuch circumitances he thought himlelf juftified in appeasing to the people, and if it was nesellary to fecede from the parliament, which could acquiefce under a circumitance which gave a mortal tab to the conftitution. Certain he was, an attempt to make such a bill perpetual in England would produce a rebellion. He should therefore move for a general call of the houfe, and he should hold it in the laft degree difhonorable for any member to defert his duty on the occafion. The bill for relief of the Tenantry being first tead, and the Speaker calling the attention of the houfe to the particular claufe which was added in England in favour of the tenant, Sir Hercules Langford Rowley moved for a Committee of comparifon before the fecond reading. The bill for an alteration in the bankrupt laws and equalization bill were read a first time, and ordered to be read again to-morrow. The call of the houfe was then read, after which the houfe was adjourned 'till to-mor row. Auguft 9.] Read a fecond time, the bill for the improvement of trade, and granting certain duties to his majesty. The bill for amending the bankrupt laws. The bill for paving and flagging Sackvilleftreet. The bill for licensing and badging the poor of Waterford, and Lisburn, and The bill to empower Edward Beaver, Efq; to make leafes of lands in the town of Lisburn. Which were all ordered to be committed for to morrow. Auguft 10.] Read, in committee, the feve ral bills read in the house yesterday; and committed for to morrow. Auguft 11.] The Speaker having taken the chair, a meffage arrived from the lords, by the doctors Walker and Veley, that they had agreed to the feveral engroffed bills fent by the house. Read and paffed. Mr. Row ey reported from the committee of comparifon on the bill for compelling the renewal of leafes for lives. The feveral alterations made in the bill being read, they were ordered to lie on the table for the perufal of the members. The order of the day was then read, for going into the confideration of the faid bill. The bill was then read, when Sir Hercules Langford Rowley, faid, as he had opposed it all along, he would fill oppose it upon its principles, which was an abfolute interference of the legislature with the eflablished laws. He therefore moved, that the reading of the bill fhould be postponed until the first day of February. Mr. Chapman obferved, that after a laborious investigation of the bill in that house upon a former occafion, it was found a proper one. Upon going over fome old ftatutes he found, he faid, it was not a novel one. He here adduced fome examples, particularly one in the cafe of leafes where the tenant is allowed fix months to come in and redeem, notwithstanding the exprefs words of the covenant, which limits 22 days. Mr. Rowley infifted that it would not be of any use to the kingdom. That it would not tend to encrease the yeomanry, or forward the proteftant intereft, as the under tenant could not be benefied by it, being already the llaves of Mr. Forbes then moved that the bill be read thofe clafs of men who hold leafes. It had been on Friday next. altered in another country, and it would con A divifion enfued, when the numbers ap- fequently be an inluk to the houfe to pats it. peared 76-Noes 23 Ayes Tellers for the ayes, Mr. Grattan, Mr. For bes. Noes hon J. Burke, Mr. Gore. The committee of comparison was then formed, and it was ordered to be read on Friday next. A meffage from the lords with their approbatien of fome bills feat in. Mr. Crookback faid, that parliament wanted only to restore that fyftem of equity, which had for more than a century received the approba. tion of the greatest law opinions that ever graced this country. He was forry to hear that mode which had been fo long called justice, now efleemed as rank fraud. He begged of gentlemen to caft their eyes on the other fide of the Atlantic, and judge, whether America fubmit red ted to England, or established a republican fyftem, at the hour that peace fhould arrive, what were they to expect but emigrations from this kingdom. Policy trade them prepare for that event, and instead of making their fituation more precarious to the bulk of the people, they thould encourage them to ftay at home. He wished to fe, amidst the heap of statutes which were volumed in behalf of the landlord, one law made in favour of the tenant. Sir Samuel Bradstreet always thought the te antry worthy of the firft encouragement. He bad difficulties about the bill, nor could he lay it was confonant to his intereft. But he had received the instructions of his conftituents, and that should always determine his conduct, whether it clashed with his intereft or not. He then gave some examples from the proceedings of the English lords, where they had decided contrary to exprefs law; and faid he felt an uncommon fatisfaction, though it might clash with his private intereft, of thus fetting an example to others to obey the inftructions of their confti taents. Sir William Oborne did not deny that he was interested in the subject. Upon the former debating of it, fo iar as it only regarded landlord and tenant, he was filent, bus when it came to a question between the privy council of Great Bitain and the legislature of this kingdom he could not be filent. It originated with a gentleman of the most liberal principles and enlarged understanding-it was forwarded by one of the moft illuftrious characters in that house, and was framed by a gentleman whole experience and knowledge he could not do juice to. But inftead of an English privy council paying a proper deference to an act of the Irth legislature, and coming out of fuch hands, the bill returned fo garbled, that the father could hardly know his own child. It included doubts and obfcurities, and introduced uncertainty in the room of precision. Instead of limited terms, it was alcered to adequate compensation, vague and unfimited. Another alteration was the omiffion of a claufe, which enacted, that all cofts fhould be paid by the tenant who was really guilty of the lapfe. The neceffity of a fuit is brought on through the fault of the tenant, and yet the landlord must be at all the coffs! If thele were not abfurdities evident to all the house, he did. not know what should be deemed an abfurdity. It was not the creature of Irish legiflation he objected to, but to the picture exhibited of Britiá councils. Precedents might be adduced hereafter, and the work of this day wrought into a mischievous example. Another great fubject would come before them in a few days altered by the English minifters, and they thould few on the prefent occafion, that it was in vain to tamper with them in another, and he hoped they would never betray their own dignity by an Daworthy condefcenfion. The right hon. Mr. Burgh said he never was more furprized than to hear a doubt raised in chat house against a matter that was the prayer of every good man, and the wish of all. If men, who were not prefent at the former difcuffion of the measure, were now brought together to overturn it, the attempt should not be admitted. The only object of any confequence which had eccurred, was that of the right hon. gentleman whofe utual opinions carried a weight, which could not be admitted now he faid it might tend to give weight to Englith councils it was not poffible. If the influence of English councils was to be combated, an opportunity would foon offer to check this influence. The alteration of the mutiny bill would farnith a fubject, as it was a mealure which he could not luppole to be more replete with madness than wickednels. But this bill was a conftitutional acquifition, as well in point of policy as intereft, Lett gentlemen who oppose follow the example of the abfentee landlords, who generously decline all oppofition in England; it was an example full of humanity, and they thould not be inferior in generosity. Mr. Burgh faid he had one word more to add, gentlemen who formerly oppofed this bill might think themselves bound in confiflency to Oppole it ftili. All the oppofition they made was built merely on law; but that oppofition fhould certainly ceafe when they recollected that it had now paffed the council of Ireland, where all the law lords fat. That it had paffed the council of England where the lord chancellor had given is his approbation; after fuch a fanction, if he had before voted againit it, he would now vote for it, to give parliament a confiftent dignity. Sir Henry Cavendish defired gentlemen to recollect, that the heads of this bill had formerly paffed in a thin house, and by the small majority of three; that he then voted through principle. and would maintain the fame confiftency. He would not be wedded to the dictum of his confituents, as an hon. gentleman had declared himle:f bound by, for he also received an addrels from his conftituents to vote against this bill, [a loud laugh] not to vote against it. As they affigned no reafon for fuch an order, he fent them two or three and twenty queries, which if aniwers to his conviction, he would comply with their defire. He was fure, he said, from not having received any answer, that his queries bad altered their fentiments [another loud laugh.] Many gentlemen had applied to the feelings of the houte upon the advantage it would afford the poor of Ireland. He thought the contrary; it might ferve the leale holders, but would not extend to the peafantry. It might enrich land-jobbers, whole hearts would never be foftened to lerve a yeomanry. The opinion of the privy council of Great-Britain had been drawn in as an additional weight to gentlemens' argumenis. That allo was a new doctrine in that houfe, as he remembered that Poynings" law and the privy council of Great Britain were bandied about in that house, as it might ferve conveniencie. Sir F. Flood declared he formerly had his doubts, but they were done away by the very alterations made in Great-Britain, and he would now vote for the bill. |