anyone outside of himself and what little assistance he could secure from those who expected to have positions and receive some benefits, I do not believe there is anything in it. The secretary of the treasury of that first revolution-you might call him that--was a man named Braulio Hernandez. He is here and can give you a statement. He is out with the whole outfit now. If there was any foreign money, he will tell you about it. Braulio Hernandez was a school teacher, a socialist. Before the fall of Juarez they seized a herd of cattle belonging to Charlie Warren and they assessed them an arbitrary export duty of $5 a head, gold. There were about 2,000 head in the bunch. That made about $10,000 in gold. I went to see Braulio Hernandez about it and told him that we could not pay any such sum. Senator SMITH. He was in the military party?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Senator SMITH. Occupying any civil position?

Mr. NEWMAN. At that time he was not occupying any position. I went to see him about cutting this rate of $5 gold per head-about getting it reduced--and he said he could not do anything about it, but that Abraham Gonzales, the present governor of the State of Chihuahua, might be able to help us out. Gonzales had worked for us a good many years as a cattle buyer in Chihuahua. I went over to see him; had to get a pass from the colonel in charge and go over inside the lines during the second day of the battle of Juarez. This shrapnel case here on my desk is a souvenir of that battle.

Senator SMITH. Did you have any success with Gonzales?

Mr. NEWMAN. I did. I got him down to $1.50 a head on the cattle.

Senator SMITH. What did that amount to in the aggregate?

Mr. NEWMAN. There were about 2,000 head. It amounted to about $3,000 American money, which sum we paid him; and I have the checks here, indorsed either by Madero or Braulio Hernandez. Abraham Gonzales asked me at that time if I would not make them a loan of $25.000.

Senator SMITH. When you refer to "them you mean the revolu

tionists?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; the revolutionists. I told him no; that I could not mix up in it at all. He then proposed that I try to get Mr. Warren to make that loan. Mr. Warren was there at the time.

Senator SMITH. Were there any conditions attached to that proposed loan?

Mr. NEWMAN. If we would make him a loan of $25,000 he would pay us back $100,000 as soon as their cause won, and he also intimated that it would make them at all times feel very grateful for the assistance received, and so on. He told me they were very hard up for money; that they did not have any money to buy anything; and I believed that was true at that time.

Senator SMITH. Was that money loaned?

Mr. NEWMAN. They did not get that money through us, but I believe they did get it here, locally.

Senator SMITH. In El Paso?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Senator SMITH. From whom?

Mr. NEWMAN. I have heard several names mentioned, but Mr. Z. T. White told me himself that he put up $5,000.

Senator SMITH. Of the $25,000?

Mr. NEWMAN. I do not know what the total was.

Senator SMITH. And the same condition applied to that that applied to the $25,000?

Mr. NEWMAN. I presume so.

Senator SMITH. That is, repayment in a larger sum?

Mr. NEWMAN. I presume so. I do not know that.

Senator SMITH. Did he have any interests in Mexico?
Mr. NEWMAN. He had no interests there at all.

Senator SMITH. Just did it as a venture?

Mr. NEWMAN. Just did it as a venture. He is a very wealthy property owner here and a very close associate of mine. That is one reason why I would not make a public statement.

Senator SMITH. Do you know of anybody else from whom they succeeded in getting any money?

Mr. NEWMAN. I do not; but Mr. White, if he is willing to testify, can give you the names of all of them.

Senator SMITH. Do you know whether he was ever recouped for it? Mr. NEWMAN. I do not know whether he was or not.

Senator SMITH. The Warren people refused to make any loan? Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir; they refused to make any loan.

Senator SMITH. But they did pay this $1.50 a head for their cattle?

Mr. NEWMAN. They paid $1.50 export duty, as they called it.
Senator SMITH. Is there any export duty on cattle?

Mr. NEWMAN. There is no export duty on cattle.

Senator SMITH. It was a military exaction?

Mr. NEWMAN. It was a military exaction, and in fact I think I have copies of the receipts which state that it is an extraordinary war tax.

Senator SMITH. Did they make any other exactions upon you? Mr. NEWMAN. Not at that time. Afterwards I paid other sums for Mr. Warren.

Senator SMITH. How much?

Mr. NEWMAN. I do not recall the amounts.

Senator SMITH. About what?

Mr. NEWMAN. I think in all aggregating some $7,500.

Senator SMITH. None of which has ever been returned?

Mr. NEWMAN. None of which has ever been returned, though we have made regular application for it, and all the receipts were signed by Francisco Madero himself, personally. I got him to sign them after the thing was settled.

Senator SMITH. After it was all over?

Mr. NEWMAN. After it was settled in Juarez.
Senator SMITH. After he became President?

Mr. NEWMAN. No; but after the taking of Juarez.

Senator SMITH. Was there any condition attached to it that they would protect their property over there?

Mr. NEWMAN. The only condition was that if we did not pay they would not allow the cattle to be exported. The cattle were there, where there was no grass or water. They had come 75 miles overland. A trip back to the ranch would have been practically impossible; so it was just simply a thing that had to be done.

Senator SMITH. These were Mexican cattle?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes.

Senator SMITH. Are you obliged to pay an import duty?

Mr. NEWMAN. An import duty of $3.50 a head here. These were cattle raised on Mr. Warren's ranch in Mexico, that he paid taxes on. Senator SMITH. You think the Madero party were pretty badly driven for money at that time?

Mr. NEWMAN. That is my impression; that they were very badly driven for money.

Senator SMITH. Since Madero became President has he shown any indication of recognizing this claim?

Mr. NEWMAN. None.

Senator SMITH. Have you made any efforts with him?

Mr. NEWMAN. We have made every effort; placed the collections in the regular channel that they requested them to go in.

Senator SMITH. And nothing definite has ever been done about it? Mr. NEWMAN. Nothing definite has ever been done about it.

Senator SMITH. Has there been any adjudication of it so that the exact amount has ever been determined?

Mr. NEWMAN. None.

Senator SMITH. To what department of the Mexican Government did you make the representation?

Mr. NEWMAN. To the department of claims, a department that has been organized just for that purpose. I think it is under the department of the interior.

Senator SMITH. Who is the secretary of the interior?

Mr. NEWMAN. Hernandez.

Senator SMITH. Have you ever had any interviews with him about it?

Mr. NEWMAN. No, sir.

Senator SMITH. Or with any official of the Mexican Government? Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I interviewed Mr. Madero about it at the City of Mexico.

Senator SMITH. When?

Mr. NEWMAN. Just shortly after his election. I do not remember the month.

Senator SMITH. Was that your object in going down there?

Mr. NEWMAN. That among other things. It was one of my objects in going there.

Senator SMITH. How did he treat you?

Mr. NEWMAN. Very courteously, and he said he would see that the matter was taken up, and even went to the telephone at once and called up the department and wanted to know why that matter had not been given attention, and turned around to me and said, "Now you can go to the department to-morrow morning, and that matter will receive immediate attention." I went at various times. I did not stay there solely for that purpose. I received no satisfaction.

Senator SMITH. Do you know of any other property owners, mining companies, or other associations doing business in Mexico, from whom the same tribute exactions were made?

Mr. NEWMAN. The Dolores Mining Co., near Madera, in the State of Chihuahua, lost very heavily, and the Rio Tiento Mining Co. lost a great deal. They are a Cleveland company. There is a Mr.

R. H. Luckett, of this city, who lost very heavily at his store in Durango.

Senator SMITH. Do you know of any sums paid by any of these people?

Mr. NEWMAN. Mr. Paul, the manager of the Dolores Co., told me that he paid $13,000 at one time in order to keep them from looting his stores, but they came back and looted them anyhow a day or two afterwards. This was under the leadership of Rojas. That was in this later revolution, however.

Senator SMITH. Confining it now to the first, or Madero revolution, do you know whether any of these companies you have mentioned paid anything?

Mr. NEWMAN. In the first revolution I think they did.

Senator SMITH. Can you tell how much?

Mr. NEWMAN. I am not able to give the amount.

Senator SMITH. But you are quite confident that they paid large sums?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir; large sums.

Senator SMITH. How did they pay them?

Mr. NEWMAN. Usually in cash.

Senator SMITH. Through their Mexican offices or through their New York or American offices?

Mr. NEWMAN. Usually through the Mexican offices.

Senator SMITH. Do you know whether they got the consent of their American offices?

Mr. NEWMAN. I think as a rule they were not in touch with the American offices and could not get consent.

Senator SMITH. They acted on their own responsibility?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; it was just a question of having to put up the money or lose out.

Senator SMITH. Do you know of others that made representations to Madero since he became President?

Mr. NEWMAN. No, sir; I do not know.
Senator SMITH. Asking for returns?

Mr. NEWMAN. Not of my own knowledge.

Senator SMITH. Do you know of any of them who have gotten back any money?

Mr. NEWMAN. We are speaking now of American citizens, are we not?

Senator SMITH. Yes.

Mr. NEWMAN. I know of none.

Senator SMITH. During the Madero revolution did they respect the rights or property of the people who paid money?

Mr. NEWMAN. I think it was Mr. Madero's intention to have their rights respected; but naturally, with the horde he had around him, they were only respected to a certain degree.

Senator SMITII. The demands continued, and the property was threatened?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH. And their rights interfered with?

Mr. NEW MAN. Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH. And their property menaced?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH. Were there any cases where lives were threatened?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes; I know of one case, under the first, or Madero revolution. At the town of Minaca, in the State of Chihuahua, four of them stood a man up, pointed their guns at him, and told him he would have to pay a ransom, and pay it quick. There was an old German there who had been in business for a long time, and he pleaded with them, and finally got the men over to his store, gave them a drink or two, and sneaked this American out back of some buildings, got him on to a horse, and got him away.

Senator SMITH. Did they threaten the German in any way?

Mr. NEWMAN. They did not threaten the German in any way.
Senator SMITH. Why not?

Mr. NEWMAN. It seems unfortunately to be the impression of the Mexicans throughout their country that the Germans and English must be respected. The point that they frequently raise is this-and this is true of all of them, even to the lowest peon-they say, "If we disturb the English and the Germans, and the other foreigners in here, with the exception of the Spaniards, then their Governments will force the United States to do something. Therefore we must not do anything to them." They feel that the United States for herself will not do anything at all; and they feel that the United States will not do anything to protect the Spaniards. The Spaniards have been treated worse than any people in the country. I mean the citizens of Spain. The ordinary Mexican hates the Spaniards worse than poison, especially on the west coast, down where our land is. There were quite a number of Spaniards in there, engaged in the fruit business bananas, limes, and lemons, and so forth-and I understand from a man we have in charge out there that they killed every one of them, robbed their stores, and cleaned them out; and they were wealthy, too. Senator SMITH. Are you able to form any impression as to the aggregate amount of the exactions that have been made upon Americans in the vicinity of your holdings?

Mr. NEWMAN. Away down below?

Senator SMITH. Yes.

Mr. NEWMAN. There are no American holdings in there to speak of.

Senator SMITH. Or in Chihuahua or any of these adjacent States? Mr. NEWMAN. No, sir; I can not give them.

Senator SMITH. Have there been any figures mentioned by men who are interested as you are interested?

Mr. NEWMAN. None.

Senator SMITH. They must run into large sums?

Mr. NEWMAN. I would say they would run into millions.

Senator SMITH. Have you an impression that most of the money that has been used in fomenting rebellion down there or encouraging and sustaining it has come from the sources that you have described; that is, those general sources?

Mr. NEWMAN. Yes, sir; that is my impression, my firm conviction. Senator SMITH. How much of it do you think has been borrowed on such usurious agreements as that held out to you and Mr. Warren? Mr. NEWMAN. I imagine very little. As soon as Orozco took Juarez and afterwards the city of Chihuahua he very quickly solved the question of ready money to his own satisfaction.

Senator SMITH. How did he do it?