teacher who is competent, understanding, who is sympathetic, and who is kind.

Now it seems to me that you can't be specific but you can't tell me that that won't do a lot of good in bringing white and black people together rather than pulling them apart so I think there is an untold fact.

Temporarily right now if we were to make a judgment, we would say it is a bad thing to make people do things against their will but it may not necessarily turn out to be a bad thing. Who knows? Who is wise enough to know?

Now if the thing collapses, well Dr. Letson and I don't think it is going to collapse, we believe it is going to work out today. We are going to see what is going to happen in the next few days.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Mr. Quie?

Mr. QUIE. The only question I would like to ask of you is if you have seen some ways of preventing schools from resegregating? You referred to this as a problem in the 1970's; how can we prevent the resegregation of schools? We are trying to grasp some way.

Dr. MAYS. This is the white man's problem. Until the leadership in the community talk against the flight of white people from within the city, suburbia, and other places, I don't see what you can do about it. If you have a situation where few Negroes are moving into an area, then the white people get panicky and move out. I am living in an area right now where 5 or 6 years ago it was all white and the Negroes moved in there. Now they were not laborers, there is no reflection on laborers; they were not mechanics with no reflection on them, they were doctors or they were schoolteachers. They were college professors, but still the people ran.

Now until the businesses face up to this problem, until the Chamber of Commerce faces up to this problem, the Kiwanis Club faces up to this problem and until the top leadership in business and in the profession faces up to this problem, let us live together in the community, there is no need of this proliferation, white people live one place and the other ones live another; until the leadership in the community becomes equipped, we can't lick it because if the newspapers say nothing about this, if the news media in general says nothing about this, if your political leadership says nothing about this, if your ministers say nothing about this and all of your leadership in the community abrogate and say nothing about it; this says one thing, we are all in favor of the white folks running when the Negroes move in. This is the solution. That is why I say it is the white man's problem.

Mr. PUCINSKI. Doctor, I wish it were that simple. We have a situation in Chicago and in the South Boston area, among many others. There has been a movement of nonwhite people from the South into this area. There has been a serious effort made by the communities to stabilize this factor with all sorts of efforts. Many people have said they will stay, not move away, not panic. We think it is morally right and we are going to stay.

Well, those people who stayed found that others would not. The movement kept coming and the neighborhood kept changing. Now they cannot sell their property.

For instance, one widow called me this summer. She had paid $23,000 for a townhouse that she had bought with $5,000 down. She had a

$17,000 mortgage which she reduced by $6,000 in the last a number of years. She had $11,000 mortgage on this townhouse that she had paid $23,000 for. She finally reached the point where she felt she ought to move. She couldn't get $11,000 for her home. She couldn't raise even the price of her mortgage. If the bank received only $9,000, she would still be liable for $2,000 payments on the mortgage. We must find a better solution to situations like this.

Would you care to comment on this? What if you were to send into these changing communities a skilled task force of educators to upgrade the quality of education in the local school and make that school a model of educational excellence, make it so good that no one white or black would think of giving up an opportunity to participate in that kind of educational program. It is going to cost a lot of money, obviously. In Atlanta, 26 schools have gone from white to black so we know if we do nothing this school is going to be No. 27.

But, suppose you were sending that school a tremendous task force of educators to make that school so good that the school would become the stabilizer of that community. No parent would think of moving out of that community because it makes no difference whether they are white children or black children in that school. All of the kids are getting a fantastic education. What would you think of that solution?

Dr. MAYS. I think it would be a good experiment to try. I am not quite as optimistic as you are to keep that, to think that that would keep the people from running. I think this thing is bigger than that. I am not quite that optimistic. Turn this thing around. What do you think to try to revert this. You take one of these schools that is already all black and make this school so good in a black community and so outstanding that the white kids will want to come from another section of the city to that school?

Mr. PUCINSKI. Fine, I would be willing to try that.

Dr. MAYS. Let me come back to what you said. You didn't quite address yourself to my question. You didn't tell me whether the Chicago leadership, the kind of leadership that I mentioned, that is necessary if you are going to stabilize a community, whether or not the Chicago leadership moved to their aid in trying to stabilize it. I think if you get just a few people who mean well to do this without total community support, it is likely to flop.

I still go back to the leadership of the community, what they want, what kind of community the people want. Do they want a segregated community or do they want it desegregated?

Mr. PUCINSKI. I don't want to echo what I said earlier and what Mr. Quie said but it is only when we come here and have a chance to talk to people actually in the field that we are helped to understand these problems better. I am really grateful to you for taking time out to be with us.

Thank you very much, Dr. Mays, we will have a little 5-minute coffee break here and then we will go right on.

(Short recess.)

Mr. PUCINSKI. We are delighted to have Mr. Mac Barber, the chairman of the Education Committee, Georgia House of Representatives with us and Mr. Barber, we are most anxious to hear some of your views on how we at the Federal level can be of greater help to you

people at the State level in trying to resolve some of these problems. Why don't you just proceed in any manner that you wish.

(The following article was submitted for the record :)

NEEDS OF ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION FOR THE DECADE OF THE 1970's It will be necessary, during the decade of the 1970's, for public education to improve some existing programs, adapt others, and add other activities to more adequately provide an educational opportunity to meet the needs of all individuals. Kindergarten opportunities for all children are a must, with additional early childhood experiences even before the age of five for many children in the ghettos and other low-income families. Societal changes necessitate these early childhood experiences to provide a more equal opportunity for children as they enter the first grade.

Coupled with the initiation of a broad early childhood education program is the need for a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio, particularly in the early elementary grades. With a small enrollment, students can be given more individualized instruction, thereby mastering reading and other communication skills, as well as basic academic knowledge in the areas of mathematics, science, and social studies.

An expanded program of guidance and counseling will be necessary as students progress into the middle grades and early high school grades. This added effort in counseling and guidance will provide an opportunity for students to more or less "find themselves" in terms of interest relating to potential occupationally oriented instructional programs.

The high school program must be expanded to include more programs resulting in individuals developing the academic knowledge and basic manipulative skills for entry into an occupation. High school and post high school technological and highly skilled occupational opportunities should be provided for the more academically talented student. The existing high school academically oriented program for the college-bound student should be improved for those students who, after careful evaluation and counseling, wish to enroll in colleges and universities for preparation in occupations requiring at least a college degree.

The existing organization of schools and school systems will of necessity have to be adjusted, providing larger administrative units on a system-wide basis as well as larger individual schools to economically include both academic and occupationally oriented educational opportunities. The structure of school buildings will need to be redesigned for more individualized instruction and student exploration with special laboratories and libraries, or other resource centers.

The school year should be extended to properly utilize physical facilities on a year-round basis. An extended school year would broaden the opportunities for educationally oriented on-the-job training. This would provide opportunity for the school and the representatives of business and industry to work more closely together in developing the kind of educational program that is necessary to meet our needs.

STATEMENT OF HON. MAC BARBER, CHAIRMAN, EDUCATION COMMITTEE, GEORGIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Mr. BARBER. It is a pleasure to have this opportunity to appear before you gentlemen and we are delighted to have you in Georgia. I was very interested in some comments that were made earlier pertaining to de facto segregation and education and, the de facto segregation and education will not be eliminated until de facto segregation in housing is eliminated.

I am inclined to say that probably the State of Georgia, the General Assembly of Georgia, the first general assembly in the United States to pass housing legislation to assist first in implementing the Federal housing program and second or equally of importance to cause more needy citizens, to cause citizens who have the greatest need in the field of housing to be eligible because more of those people could be eligible.

This was done at the last session of the legislature and I think, gentlemen, this documents and maybe substantiates the spirit of concern on the part of the general assembly for all citizens who need decent housing and I think it points out that the General Assembly of Georgia generated publicly a spirit of fairness for people who are in need and since the housing question did arise I am happy and pleased that I am able to point out the fact that this past legislature which adjourned on the 21st of February took the positive action in this field and I think if, it does show that people who are in the field of legislating are not always just interested in themselves, sometimes we are accused of that but we are interested as you gentlemen can certainly point out by traveling over the country trying to get a real picture of what is happening in the field of elementary and secondary education. We are interested in promoting the best quality school system that we can have.

Mr. QUIE. Could I ask you what your legislature does in the case of private housing, family dwellings, that are being integrated but face the prospect of being resegregated?

Mr. BARBER. Your question is, What does this legislation do to prevent a continuation of or say the resegregating of people in the field of housing?

Mr. QUIE. Right.

Mr. BARBER. Well, let me say it is not so much of what it prevents but it is what it does. It deals equally with all citizens. It opens new avenues of opportunity for both private housing and for becoming eligible for housing in the through the housing and urban developments so I would have to say that it takes this legislation and this constitutional amendment that is involved which will have to be voted on in November, it takes the positive approach on behalf of all citizens, instead of taking the negative approach of maybe preventing something from happening. It is an effort to cause everybody to have the same equal opportunity in acquiring decent housing.

It is involved to a great extent in some eight pieces of legislation, two of which are constitutional amendments and I do believe that the people of this State will adopt these constitutional amendments just as the legislature passed the statutory legislation.

Pertaining to our present school programs and the needs for the 1970's, I think one of the greatest needs would pertain to additional funds.

Now in Georgia we think we have done an excellent job, we could have done better. We are investing some 55 percent of our State funds in elementary and secondary and higher education programs. And, on the local level, the local systems, citizens at the local level, are paying 19 percent of the cost of the elementary and secondary school program but in the 1970's we will have to: No. 1, improve what we now have, some of our existing programs, we are going to have to make some adoptions on them and we are going to have to add other programs.

I am more convinced now than ever before that local and State funds will not be sufficient to meet the needs of education in the 1970's.

For the first time really, I think we have taken the view that education is for all, it is a part of the program that I think will be the salvation of our country and I think that education for all is an exception that we will find only in the United States, nowhere else in this world.

Now, for the first time, in the Nation we are truly involved in it to that extent, education for everybody, but I don't think that we have really come face to face with stark reality of what the educational program of the future will cost, so therefore I feel that as never before we are going to need additional funds from you gentlemen in the U.S. Congress.

Now, when we talk about what we need funds for, in the State of Georgia, and I am talking about what do we need to add. We need to add early childhood education to our elementary school program. We are talking about a kindergarten program for 5-year-olds and then I feel that there is a need beyond that for children in the really lowincome families that we may need to extend that program to some of those who are age 4-plus.

Also, I think that we need statewide to add the fourth-quarter system that Dr. Letson talked about, a system that is operating so well here in Atlanta. That will broaden the opportunity to educationally oriented on-the-job training programs which is so badly needed and which we have barely gotten into in this State.

Now, we need to make, adapt what we have, we need to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio in this State. In grades eight through 12 we have a 1 to 25, people-teacher ratio but in grades one through seven, we have had a 1 to 28 up until this year and beginning with the next school program, the next school term we will have reduced it in the first three grades down to 1 to 25.

Well, now talking about funding, from the State and what is available versus what is available on a national level, the funds in the State level hardly seems consequential but it requires some $12 million or will require some $12 million just to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio from 1 to 28 to 1 to 25 for the first three grades in Georgia and if we could have gone to what we really think we need a reduction of 1 to 20 and Dr. Mays pointed out that we need it now more than ever since it is education for all that we may need to reduce it to, in some instances, to even a smaller pupil-teacher ratio. However, had we been able to go this year to 1 to 20 in the first three grades, we would have of necessity had to appropriate an additional $30 million and I repeat we are now appropriating some 55 percent of our budget to two departments of State and there are some 62 other departments of State which think they are just as important as the elementary and secondary school program and higher educational school program.

Now, gentlemen, one other thing, we need to improve our guidance and counseling program because more and more students are going to need some help to find themselves as they move toward occupationally oriented instruction and academically oriented programs of instruction for those who intend to go on to college.

Of course there are many other needs and we will never fulfill all of our needs in the field of education but we do feel in Georgia that we have done a very good job in being able to appropriate as much as we do appropriate yet we are going to have to do even better in the years to come both on the State and on the local level and I am convinced that you gentlemen will have to make some more money available from the national level if we are going to truly give every child an opportunity to develop his potential to its fullest.