Those things are going to come, and when they do come, they are going to enable you to carry a heavier pay load and anything that you can do to advance that date will give you superiority over your potential enemies as well as being usable in world commerce in the

meantime.

Mr. HINSHAW. Certainly if we had had sufficient research in the past we could have been even further ahead of our enemies in this war than we are new.

Colonel GORRELL. Very much so, especially in connection with the water-cooled engines, sir.

Mr. HINSHAW. And it would have been cheap, in view of the tremendous sums now being spent for military and naval aircraft.

Colonel GORRELL. I imagine that 1 percent of a single day's wartime expenses would have solved many of the questions in connection with engines; about 1 percent of one day's expenses.

Mr. HINSHAW. I think so.

Mr. WINTER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Is it in connection with this subject?

Mr. WINTER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. WINTER. I was going to ask the Colonel if the airplane industry had ever come to this Congress or this committee and requested such research program and whether or not it had been refused by this committee or the Congress?

Colonel GORRELL, No. As I mentioned awhile ago, the Congress appropriated the money some years ago but the administration decided not to use it, and turned it back into the Treasury.

Mr. WINTER. That is what I thought. In other words, the Congress did not fail to act.

Colonel GORRELL. No.

Mr. BROWN. On that point, let me just ask you one question to get it into the record at this place.

Is it not true that we are doing this research work and have been doing it for a number of years at Wright Field in Ohio, so far as military aircraft are concerned?

sir.

Colonel GORRELL. The answer to that question is "Yes" and "No,"

We have been doing certain research; but research on a specific type of engine like Mr. Hinshaw mentioned we have never yet started. Mr. BROWN. You mean on engines or gasoline?

Colonel GORRELL. No; I mean in general. The private pocketbook has really put up the cash so far.

Mr. HINSHAW. My remarks, Mr. Chairman, in that connection, were not so much directed at the proposition that the Government itself or alone should do the research, but as the Colonel has spoken of, a certain degree of competition in research is a very stimulating thing and if it is to be confined to the Government you are likely to be confined to ideas or thinking of one particular committee or individual of that committee.

Colonel GORRELL. That is right, sir.

Mr. HINSHAW. Whereas if you separate it and spread it over a large number of agencies they are likely to develop some new and different ideas, not because the men in one organization are more in

telligent than another, but because some of them may hit the right thing.

Colonel GORRELL. Quite often given X dollars, this or that university or laboratory may develop something that is really worth while. Mr. HINSHAW. That is right.

Mr. PRIEST. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Priest.

Mr. PRIEST. Colonel, assuming that the Civil Aeronautics Board is given a sufficient amount of money and sufficient trained personnel to make the survey proposed in paragraph (b) of section 1, is it your opinion that the authorization is sufficiently broad to enable that Board to do a complete and comprehensive survey of every phase of the question?

Colonel GORRELL. No, sir; I think the language needs working over. I think the language of this bill should be worked over.

Mr. PRIEST. With reference to the scope of this survey?

Colonel GORRELL. Yes, sir; and in 1 (b) particularly telling them distinctly that you want them to get into these technological matters, such as meteorology, engines, and other things which are of outstanding importance.

Mr. PRIEST. That is all.

Mr. HARRIS. Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Harris.

Mr. HARRIS. Colonel, it is your idea then that the Government should make provision for this research and study, and that the responsibility should not rest upon the shoulders of the industry.

Colonel GORRELL. No; not quite, sir. What I think you should do is to continue what you have been doing since 1915, and maybe add to it once in a while some particular item not yet properly covered.

In 1915 you created the National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics. Every important nation in the world did the same thing, because research and problems of flight are so expensive that they are beyond the realm of any private pocketbook, if you are going to make haste fast enough.

The reason we have been ahead in the science or art of flight is because of the fact that the National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics has kept us mentally ahead of other countries; but they have confined their efforts until very recent times to the science and art of flight. It was a good idea, because if they had not done so, we would not have made the progress that we have made.

During the last couple of years you have made an appropriation to build N. A. C. A. laboratory at Cleveland. That laboratory is being completed and they are able to go into the fundamental principles of engines.

Mr. HARRIS. Is it not a fact that the development of the automobile industry and certain other industries that we could enumerate has been due to the enormous work of the manufacturing companies themselves in developing those industries?

Colonel GORRELL. And you have that same thing today in the airplane industry. The most important work that is being done on engine research emanates out of the private pockets of a few airplane and aircraft engine manufacturers.

Mr. HARRIS. Your thought then is that the manufacturing industry should proceed with the progress and development of aviation and

at the same time the Government carry on this scientific study or research?

Colonel GORRELL. Yes, sir. The Government should give the spur every time the horse does not go fast enough. That is what I am trying to get at. For example, the manufacturers today are working on engines of very large horsepower. It may be that the Government will not need ever to build an engine. It may be that Uncle Sam could build a single cylinder and demonstrate that he could get more horsepower out of a cubic inch of cylinder space if that type of cylinder were used. Having developed such a principle, Uncle Sam could turn it over to some company to build the engine in his effort to get bigger and better engines all of the time. For instance, you might with a gallon of gasoline lift this whole Capitol, if you knew how to explode it properly, but today we are still scientifically extremely wasteful. I doubt if we get over 5-percent efficiency out of our gasoline today. Somebody is some day going to learn how to burn gasoline efficiently. We do not know much about it yet.

Mr. HARRIS. If I get your thought correctly then under the Civil Aeronautics Act of 1938 the manufacturing companies have been, as you have stated, spurred on in this development rather than a lag in the development.

Colonel GORRELL. They have done a good job. I am talking now about sticking the spur to the horse, even though he is jumping 6 feet now, so that he will jump 6 feet 3 the next time.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wolverton.

Mr. WOLVERTON. I desire to get something concrete, to deal with the assumptions that are continually being made, such as you made just a few moments ago in speaking of the international situation, when you expressed yourself in about this fashion-we are getting licked if we do not go forward more quickly. In other words, I took it from what you said that other nations were so far ahead of us that we were in a way to be licked unless we get, as you now say, a spur in the horse to make us jump 6 feet 3 instead of 6 feet.

Colonel GORRELL. I gave the wrong impression if I said it that way. Today I think we are tops, but we have got to stay tops. Other nations are trying to get to where we are and then surpass us. They will if we do not give thought to going forward.

Today they have not caught up with us, but it is possible that they can go beyond us unless we give more thought to it.

Mr. WOLVERTON. That presents the situation more to my liking. I like to hear it that way.

Colonel GORRELL. That is what I was hoping to say awhile ago. Mr. WOLVERTON. I regret, we do not always find the same willingness upon the part of others to state it as optimistically as you do. I have gathered from many statements which have been made in Congress and otherwise in the last few days that, in the opinion of some, this Nation is lagging but that we have certain advantages now as a result of our military effort, and that if something is not done. immediately so that we can, as it were, pounce in as soon as the war is over, that men then it will all be for naught.

I do not think anyone would have to defend their patriotism or their nationalism in a desire to see this Nation go ahead or to retain

any predominance that it has at the present time; therefore, I am interested in having concrete suggestions as to what this committee can do at this time, or any other committee can do at this time, that will make certain that this so-called dominance that we have now under a military regime will continue to our benefit in a commercial way after the war.

Colonel GORRELL. Mr. Wolverton, I think that we are talking on two subjects. One I mentioned in connection with putting the spurs to ourselves legislatively and technologically.

Mr. WOLVERTON. I know.

Colonel GORRELL. And another one which you have just brought up which is, you might say, international politics.

Mr. WOLVERTON. That is what I am making particular reference to. Colonel GORRELL. I do not know much about Congress, but I doubt if Congress can do the international politics until after it has sent its representatives to talk to the other nations and see what kind of a deal America can make. Then and thereafter you can follow that up with further legislation.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Well, I have tried very hard to analyze the statements that have recently been made with respect to that very subject and I confess that I have not as yet been able to get anything definite that can be done in a legislative way at this time.

There is being held up before us the fear that if something is not done, now that then we will lose out when the war is over. I am intensely interested in seeing that we shall hold what we have and that we shall not lose out after the war. I have thought that you, out of your abundant experience extending over so many years, might be able to indicate to us some kind of legislation or some course to be pursued that will provide against the fear that is now being so strongly urged as a possibility, if nothing is done.

Colonel GORRELL. The international political problem you are talking about is not solvable now by legislation, in my opinion.

Mr. WOLVERTON. I am in full accord with the thought you have just expressed. However, I am trying to find somebody who will give concrete suggestions as how we can, by legislation, at this time insure our position in the future. I think that anybody who gives it any study will eventually come to the conclusions you have, and I may say that I have for the time being, at least, until somebody shows the contrary, but I am asking for definite information or suggestions as to how we can maintain our present position of air dominance after the war in a commercial way the same as it is now pictured that we have domination in the air from a military standpoint.

Colonel GORRELL. Your problem is to see that this country in a technological and commercial way is capable of handling it and that is within your hands. The other problem is for your negotiators to work out across the table with other nations.

Mr. WOLVERTON. That is exactly the opinion that I have had, but I thought that maybe I had overlooked something that we could be doing now to insure our position in the future.

I was not aware until recently that there was any thought that there was anything from a legislative standpoint that could be done

along that line until the war was over, but I am anxious to learn from you or somebody just what we can do at this time that will help. Colonel GORRELL. Maybe you gentlemen can work on the spinal column of your negotiators.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Do what?

Colonel GORRELL. Maybe you gentlemen can work on the spinal column of your negotiators and make them stiffer and stronger.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Well, I do not know what spinal columns we will · have at that time.

But now let us look at it from the international standpoint-let us look at this question of post-war problems also from the domestic standpoint.

What would you suggest now, if anything, that this committee or any committee could do in the way of recommending legislation that would retain all that we may have gained by the impetus of war and make certain our future?

Colonel GORRELL. Within the bounds of our own Nation?
Mr. WOLVERTON. I beg your pardon.

Colonel GORRELL. Within the limits of our own Nation there are things you can do. You can look forward and see where the destructive things are going to crop up and handle them before the disease arises. It is much easier to handle them today than it will be later on after the disease hits you. That appears to be what H. R. 1012 is designed to do.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Many have spoken of problems, post-war problems. I do not know that I have found anyone yet who has defined what those problems are or indicated what they are. I would like to know so that we can turn our minds to the formulation of legislation that will head off those problems, or in some way deal with them in a progressive and enlightened way at this time.

Colonel GORRELL. There is one beginning on page 30 of the bill before you. It is the next subject that I intend to touch upon if I may. That is the subject of regulating contractors. Mr. Pogue said day before yesterday they had recommended that regulation be enacted for air contractors. I agree with him-appropriate regulation in the public interest.

You had that discussion in 1938 but at that time you did not see fit to do anything because it then seemed premature.

Mr. WOLVERTON. I can readily understand from the studies this committee made with reference to the Transportation Act and in the amendments and additions that have been made to that act in the years that have followed that the question of contract carriers is important; but I do not take it that it is a question that would necessarily be termed a war problem.

Colonel GORRELL. Yes, sir; it is in this way, sir.

Mr. WOLVERTON. It is a problem that we have had to deal with in other forms of transportation before this war was upon us.

Colonel GORRELL. It is a war problem in this way, sir: When the war is over the chances are that the world will have a large supply of airplanes to sell for a few cents on the dollar. There is no regulation, economically speaking, of the contract carriers by air today. A man, if he can get an airplane, can cut rates, or do anything de