Mr. WOLVERTON. With reference to the different systems of blind flying, they could be adopted at the present time without any additional legislation, could they not?

Colonel GORRELL. It requires an appropriation, but not original legislation.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Is that not also true with respect to the last matter to which you directed our attention?

Colonel GORRELL. It is absolutely true. You do not need any legislation whatsoever except for appropriations. The only point is that the Administrator's Office and the Department of Commerce have not seen fit to act as we here suggest. We have spoken to them in the past, but for some reason they have never done it.

Mr. WOLVERTON. I am interested from the standpoint of this comImittee which is legislative in character. Of course, you realize we have nothing at all to do with the appropriations. That is a matter for the Appropriations Committee.

The one thing that I am particularly interested in is that this committee by the legislation it proposes shall keep abreast of the requirements of the time. As I understand the two matters to which you are directing our attention, as being so very important, is it not correct to say that they do not require additional legislation to permit or adopt the same, but only appropriations?

Colonel GORRELL. That is correct, sir. You have provided the lily and my suggestion was simply that you gild the lily.

Mr. WOLVERTON. When you say "you," I do not think you mean that this committee do the gilding?

Colonel GORRELL. If you would spell it out in the bill, you would be gilding the gilding the lily already in existence, and that should be ample, but it

Mr. WOLVERTON. That is what I want to ask you. What is it you want us to spell out in the bill, or do you think it is necessary to have it spelled out in the bill?

Colonel GORRELL. I think you ought to place a few words in the bill and say that when the Civil Aeronautics Board has certified as to the necessity of a new route that that certification shall be followed at an early moment by a recommendation from the Administrator's Office to the Congress requesting an appropriation for aids thereon.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Well, of course, that would not be very hard to put into the bill; but after all, it is a question, it seems to me, of the Civil Aeronautics Board bringing to the attention of the Appropriations Committee, the importance of having an appropriation to cover the particular new route or new facility to be inaugurated.

Colonel GORRELL. The matter does not come within the Civil Aeronautics Board. It comes within the scope of the Administrator's Office, and the Administrator is in the Department of Commerce. The Board, except for housekeeping purposes, is independent of the Department of Commerce.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Is there anything at the moment that is necessary in the way of legislation to authorize him to bring that matter to the attention of the Appropriations Committee.

Colonel GORRELL. Nothing at all, sir. What we need is action in the Department of Commerce on that subject. Otherwise you may be, and

83838-43- -12

have been years without the aids that are necessary to make usable the routes that have been certified as being required in the public in

terest.

Mr. WOLVERTON. You see what I am endeavoring to do is to ascertain what if any additional legislation is necessary from this committee to bring aviation, civilian and commercial aviation, up to date in every particular.

Colonel GORRELL. I appreciate that, sir.

WEATHER BUREAU DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM

The committee might also consider the desirability of providing for a development program with respect to the meteorological facilities of the Weather Bureau similar to that proposed for the air navigation facilities of the Administrator of Civil Aeronautics. This could be done by slight amendments to the proposed section 307 so as to include reference to the Weather Bureau and to meteorological facilities after the reference to the Administrator and to air navigation facilities. Such a recognition of the need for a continuing program, planned ahead, for meteorological facilities would be a most constructive step. I have in mind there, Mr. Chairman, that the word "Administrator" on pages 9 and 10 of the proposed bill might be broadened to include the Chief of the Weather Bureau; three or four words, to be inserted. That is on pages 9 and 10 dealing with the Administrator. The Administrator handles all airway details except meteorological matters. The latter come under the Chief of the Weather Bureau.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wolverton.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Colonel, is it your intention to send to the committee the amendments which you think should be made to this bill which is now before us?

Colonel GORRELL. Yes, Mr. Congressman. I offered to do that when I was on the stand last Thursday; I offered to send you such information as you gentlemen may desire.

Mr. WOLVERTON. When may we expect it?

Colonel GORRELL. Very quickly; in a very few days.
Mr. WOLVERTON. The quicker the better.

AERONAUTICAL TRAINING AND EDUCATION

Colonel GORRELL. The next section of the bill is one of special interest. Section 14, beginning at the bottom of page 10 of the bill, would add two new sections to the Civil Aeronautics Act. The first would be a section related to the training of pilots and other aeronautical technicians, including mechanics. This appears on pages 11 to 12 of the bill. The second section relates to the promotion of aeronautical education. This appears on pages 12 to 13 of the bill.

The first of these two sections simply puts into permanent legislation the provisions of the Civilian Pilot Training Act, as amended. That act, worked out by this committee, has proved its worth many times over. It is indeed well to consider making it an integral part of a permanent civil aeronautics code.

Mr. Chairman, in view of the action your committee has taken in the last 2 or 3 days

Mr. BULWINKLE. Just a minute, Colonel. I must go over to another committee.

Mr. WOLVERTON. I also regret very much, Colonel, the necessity of leaving at this time, but another committee is considering another phase of aviation legislation and I am very anxious to attend that committee hearing this morning.

Colonel GORRELL. Thank you, sir.

Mr. Chairman, in view of the action that your committee has taken on the floor of the House in the last 2 or 3 days, when you place the C. P. T. C. item into permanent legislation, you might well consider dropping the word "civilian." You have proposed to the Congress in the last couple of days that the civil pilot training bill be amended to strike out the word "civilian" in order that the Department might also train military persons.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I presume that you are aware of the report that the committee has made on a bill for that purpose.

Colonel GORRELL. Yes, sir. That is the action that inspired my present statement.

Mr. HINSHAW. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hinshaw.

Mr. HINSHAW. May I inquire concerning the training of pilots and ask whether the gentleman thinks it is wise or believes it is best that civilian pilot training, after the war, should be a subsidized or wholly subsidized operation or whether there should be a definite requirement that a fee shall be paid by the person taking the course? Colonel GORRELL. By various methods; but, Mr. Congressman, I do not know just how to answer that question in specific terms. I am one of those who believe that you can skin a cat in more ways than one. You can inspire the young men of the country to go out and fly to a certain degree on their own accord by help that would cost you little or nothing. If they do not do so, you may be required to carry on your present system but modified in some respects.

I believe the President was more or less correct, when he stated during the opening of the Washington Airport that we should make aviation as familiar to the youth of the country as the squirrel gun was to the pioneers who settled this country.

Aviation was important in the last war-in fact it was decisive. If possible, it is more so in this war. And if still further possible, it will be more so the next time. Therefore it seems to me you are going to have to acquaint the youth of the country and the people of the country with aviation so they can literally fly to arms the next time the world threatens to catch on fire.

Trained manpower is the neck of the bottle in war. Shortage of trained persons was the neck of the bottle in the last war and will be the neck of the bottle in this war.

Factories can always, after they get tooled up, turn out more and more mechanical objects, but it takes time to train a human being, and we should keep our citizens able to fly and maintain the aircraft of the future.

I would start now by continuing our present system. I would think in terms of modifying it if possible when you can.

Mr. HINSHAW. Do you know what it costs for the training of one pilot, through the preliminary training given under the Civilian Pilot Training Act?

Colonel GORRELL. I do not know that figure accurately. I know enough about the subject to make a wild guess.

Mr. HINSHAW. That would be interesting.

Colonel GORRELL. I don't know the exact figure but in the last war we spent $5,000 to give training to a pilot before he reached a flying unit. When you go further and carry a man through the course to make a fully trained military flying pilot it might cost you about $40,000 if you are training him for the latest machines. The elementary C. P. T. C. Course is done by contract for about $500. We paid the British for the training they provided our pilots in the last war a ffat sum of $5,000 per individual.

Mr. HINSHAW. As I remember it, and this is offhand memory, the contribution made by the individual in the civil pilot training for a laboratory fee was something in the neighborhood of $30 or $35, was it not, Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. HINSHAW. And then that would be the only requirement that you would place on the person taking the course?

Colonel GORRELL. For the moment, sir. There are other things you can do. I will give you one minor example, which would be a major item toward making aviation as well known as the squirrel gun to the youth of the country.

Our Government collects in taxes a very minor sum from the flyers of this country but when the flyer goes out on Sunday morning to keep his hand in and pays 7 or 8 cents a gallon taxes, his taxes may run him anywhere from $7 to $8 an hour alone, in order to keep himself able to fly military types of machines in case this country calls him. That tax money is often not refunded and it is too much for the youth of the country to stand.

Mr. HINSHAW. In other words, you would advocate that gasoline taxes applying to aviation gasoline should be transferred to the fund of the Civil Aeronautics Administration for the purpose of supplementing their present income from the Congress?

Colonel GORRELL. No, sir. In view of the fact that the return on gasoline in the form of Federal taxes is only a drop in the bucket to our Treasury, and if you do not get the training of the youth of the country it costs billions to make up for such lack of preparation, if I were able to do so, I, as Uncle Sam, would waive the minor amount of Federal gasoline taxes for flying around in the air. Which as I said before, it is only a drop in the bucket, it is enough though to prevent the youth of the country from doing much flying for military training out of their own pockets.

Mr. HINSHAW. I did not know that aviation gasoline was subject to the Federal gasoline tax?

Colonel GORRELL. Yes, sir; a cent and a half a gallon Federal taxes. Now, if Uncle Sam would waive the tax, the States would probably take that as an example and go along on it but today Uncle Sam sets the precedent.

Mr. HINSHAW. I understood that the primary purpose of the gasoline tax was to provide roads in the country.

Colonel GORRELL. That is what it started out to be. Since then, in some States, it has been used for other purposes. I doubt if Uncle Sam gets $100,000 a year in taxes out of it; but it prohibits the youth from going out, because it is too much for their pocketbooks.

The CHAIRMAN. I might say in that connection that the object of the gasoline tax, of course, in the States is principally for road purposes, but the Federal tax is intended to go into the general fund.

Mr. HINSHAW. Is it the chairman's understanding that for instance in his own State, which is likewise mine, that the gasoline taxes collected there are also on navigation gasoline? .

The CHAIRMAN. For the Federal Government.
Mr. HINSHAW. No; I mean for the State government.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I think it is true.

Colonel GORRELL. Most all States collect a tax per gallon.

The CHAIRMAN. Maybe I am mistaken, but there are a few States where exemptions are made.

Colonel GORRELL. There are a few States that do not charge a gas tax on aviation gasoline, but very few. There are other States that refund it, and some that do not refund.

The CHAIRMAN. While we are on this subject, for the record, I wish you would give us a little information about the cost of gasoline, the consumption of gasoline by airplanes, to indicate what this tax would be.

Colonel GORRELL. If you were going to let the youth fly, and keep his hand in for flying military machines, let me point out that we have engines today that burn a gallon a mile. We have engines that are coming through that will burn more than that, and if you put two or four of them in an airplane, it runs up to 2, 3, or 4 gallons a minute.

Mr. HINSHAW. I should think, Mr. Chairman, if the gentleman would insert in his remarks at this point information which he can obtain later concerning the gasoline consumption per hour of flight in various categories of horsepower of engines, that would be very interesting, because then we could estimate in the number of hours of flight that could be conducted within a given area on given types of airplanes, the total gasoline consumption or it might be that figures could be had of some particular area as to the amount of gasoline sold in that area for aviation purposes that is subject to tax and, that would be interesting information.

Colonel GORRELL. I shall be happy to do that.

Mr. REECE. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Reece.

Mr. REECE. As I understand it is not the colonel's suggestion however that the tax on all aviation gasoline be foregone, but only on the gasoline used for pilot training and pilot maintenance, so to speak.

Colonel GORRELL. I am here discussing only the latter suggestion. You might some time wish to consider the fact. The railroads do not pay a tax on the fuel they use for propulsion nor do the steamships.

Mr. REECE. That may be true. I had in mind the matter you were discussing.

Colonel GORRELL. I was here discussing only the pilot training of the youth of the country.