ments of the Army or the Navy? They actually make their flyers in their own training schools, do they not? Mr. BURDEN. They do the selection themselves. They enlist the men, give them their physical examinations; give the men intelligence tests and then turn them over to us. We have no responsibility under the present set-up for selecting the men at all. We have had such responsibility in the past, but under the present arrangement the Army and the Navy pick their own men and merely turn them over to us for training. Mr. HOWELL. Then your experience under this program you are about to embark on for the Army and the Navy will be sufficient for you to state just how successful your efforts will be in actually training these pilots for some useful purpose with the Army or the Navy. Mr. BURDEN. It will. Mr. HowELL. Well, I know I am, and I think other members of the committee are interested in knowing just how beneficial this training is; whether it is worth as much to the people of the United States to have them trained in the civilian-pilot-training schools as to have them trained in regular Army or Navy flying schools. In other words, does it represent a saving in time, money, and effort, or not? Mr. BURDEN. It definitely does represent a saving in time, money, and effort. The men receive their initial training, as I explained, in a light airplane, which costs the Government very much less to operate than if they received it in a high-powered airplane. Moreover, there is a saving of a lot of human material. To quote the Navy figures, if you put 100 graduates of our elementary course through the Navy courses, you get 96 Navy flyers out of them. If you put 100 nonC. A. A.-trained men in a Navy school you only get 80 flyers. That's a big difference. Mr. PRIEST. Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Priest. Mr. PRIEST. I just want to ask this. A I understand it, I believe it has not been made entirely clear here that this new program we have been talking about is a program by which the War Department enters into an agreement with the Civil Aeronautics Board. It is, is it not? Mr. BURDEN. The Civil Aeronautics Administration. Mr. PRIEST. In connection with the training program of air cadets. in about 200 schools and colleges, which were announced last Saturday-the approved list-and all of these men are in active service when they begin the training. Mr. BURDEN. That is correct. Mr. PRIEST. That is the situation with reference to the new program? Mr. BURDEN. That is correct. Mr. PRIEST. It is entirely a military program in that respect? Mr. HALL. Mr. Chairman The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hall. Mr. HALL. It is not clear in my mind that on the question of cost; do you feel that it is cheaper for the Government to have the Civil Aeronautics Division give these men their basic training; cheaper for them to do it that way than it would be if the services just took over and gave these men their basic training? In other words, now this is becoming a training center for both services and I am wondering why we need to call it a part of the services of the Department of Commerce, under the Civil Aeronautics Division. Why don't we just turn it over to the two services and let them take this thing up as their own? I cannot follow you when you say it is cheaper to do it that way, because the Army and the Navy surely could get these lighter planes and do the whole job themselves. Mr. BURDEN. Well, it is considerably cheaper to do this way, Congressman, because a civilian organization to do the training is already in existence and it is an organization which requires very much less manpower; very much less spare parts, per pilot trained than a military organization would require. I do not know whether you have toured the various Army and Navy training bases, but the average number of men employed per airplane in use is six or seven times that in our C. P. T. schools. This is an enormous saving in manpower. Mr. HALL. What is the cost, so far as salaries are concerned, comparing the three civilian men and the Army men? Mr. BURDEN. Even with the difference in pay, it would be cheaper from the dollar standpoint. From the manpower standpoint it is infinitely cheaper-and men are scarcer than dollars in these days. Mr. HALL. But, it does not seem to me that it speaks well for your course I may be entirely wrong-it does not seem to me that it speaks well for your course when you have 35 hours in your training and the Navy only gives them credit for 20 hours; and you have 12 hours for the Army, and when they walk in to take the Army course, the Army will not give them one bit of credit for that 12 hours. It looks to me as if there was some waste motion there. I do not know. Mr. BURDEN. I think that the actual cost is lower, because it is done with a lighter, cheaper airplane, with fewer men, and with less material. I can present some more details on that at any time you want me to. Mr. HALL. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. BULWINKLE. Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bulwinkle. Mr. BULWINKLE. Let me ask you some questions in order to bring the information out before the committee. In 1939 the Civil Aeronautics Administration requested Congress to permit the training of civilian pilots, did it not? Mr. BURDEN. That is right. Mr. BULWINKLE. That was the only way we could get that, because there was no training for civilian pilots except for a few schools in the United States which cost anywhere from-according to my recollection-$12,000 to $15,000 a year. These were to be trained for civilian purposes and also as a reservoir in case of a national emergency. Is that not correct? Mr. BURDEN. That is right. Mr. BULWINKLE. And you started this in the fall of 1939, according to my recollection? Mr. BURDEN. That is correct. Mr. BULWINKLE.` And, how many civilian pilots did you train from the time you started until Pearl Harbor, in the United States? Mr. BURDEN. I think this figure of approximately 75,000 I gave you is about right. I can give you the exact figure later on. Mr. BULWINKLE. Then, how many of that 75,000 that you know of were engaged in the transportation industry, by the air carriers, in the United States; how many that you have trained? Mr. BURDEN. I do not know exactly how many were working on the air lines. Of course, it was a comparatively small number, because the air lines only employ about 2,000 pilots. Most of our graduates have gone into the Army or the Navy. Mr. BULWINKLE. And, a lot of them were civilian pilots in a lot of the towns throughout the United States. Mr. BURDEN. That is right. Mr. BULWINKLE. So it was started not for the purpose of training Army and Navy pilots, but as a civilian proposition because there was a lack of pilots in the United States and a lack of enthusiasm for anybody to be trained, and that is the reason that prompted this committee to start with civilian pilot training, is it not? Mr. BURDEN. And it has been an enormously successful thing. It has provided a tremendous backlog for the Army and the Navy and has produced an air-mindedness and an interest in aviation that could not possibly have been produced in any other way, in my opinion. It is the real American way because you have taken the small individual operators who have been working with their own capital and by giving them Government contracts you made it possible for them to build up a strong and worthwhile organization. It is particularly economical, in the war effort, to make use of this organization in a civilian capacity. We are going out and buying up airplanes that are not being used for any war purpose. There are thousands of these light airplanes around the country, many of them just stored in barns for the moment and by bringing them out and utilizing them, in the Army and Navy program, we are really getting something for nothing. If it were done by the Army, they would probably use higher powered machines and would have to have them built new, which would require more material and more manpower all of the way round. Mr. WOLVERTON. Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wolverton. Mr. WOLVERTON. With reference to the part that has been played by your department in the training program, I wish to say, Mr. Chairman, that I was greatly impressed by the statement made by Colonel Gorrell in this respect. He stated that the training program that had been previously conducted under your office had performed a most important work in that it supplied to the Army and Navy the help that they needed at a most critical time and which would not have been possible except for the training program that had been carried on by your department. Mr. BURDEN. Thank you. Mr. WINTER. Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Winter. Mr. WINTER. Mr. Burden, is it not a fact that the training of a pilot goes through a great many stages? Mr. BURDEN. That is right. Mr. WINTER. And as I understand this picture, your department through the C. P. T. is taking the first stage in which the washing out process takes place? Mr. BURDEN. That is right. Mr. WINTER. And these students who get by the weeding out process are then taken into the first actual Government training school. Mr. BURDEN. Military training school. Mr. WINTER. The training that you are giving is also done under the supervision of the Army or the Navy; either one? Mr. BURDEN. Yes; in that they approve our standards. Mr. WINTER. Well, they have inspectors coming there at various times, do they not, to these contract schools. Mr. BURDEN. No; we do the inspecting ourselves in the C. P. T. schools, with the exception that there are certain schools training instructors for the Navy where the Navy has resident inspectors. Mr. WINTER. They have one in my district in which that is not true. Mr. BURDEN. That is probably a civilian contract school working under direct contract with the Army. In addition to using the C. A. A. schools Army also has some civilian schools itself-only about 40 or 50, I believe where it gives its men basic training. Those are also in a civilian capacity and undoubtedly there is one of those in your district. They are supervised by Army men resident there. Mr. WINTER. And they go from those schools when they get through there they are not weeded out? Mr. BURDEN. That is right. Mr. WINTER. But found to be able or have possibilities of developing into a flyer. Mr. BURDEN. That is right. Mr. WINTER. And then they go from there to a strictly military school. Mr. BURDEN. That is correct. Mr. WINTER. To one of these many training centers that we are building, setting up, at this time? Mr. BURDEN. That is right. Mr. WINTER. I am very much interested in the thing. It so happens that I was in the Air Service in the First World War, and had that system been used, it would have saved a lot of trouble and a lot of accidents. Mr. BURDEN. I think it is a thoroughly sound system. Mr. WINTER. I do too. I do not agree with my friend from New York [Mr. Hall] at all. Mr. SADOWSKI. Mr. Chairman. 83838-43--23 Mr. SADOWSKI. I wanted some information if I can get it on the C. A. P. What is the duty of that organization, and what type of work are they doing? Mr. BURDEN. I am not really qualified to testify in detail on the Civilian Air Patrol. I can tell you in a general way that it is an organization of private flyers using their own airplanes, which has been doing submarine patrol off the coast, looking for submarines, under contract to the Army, and also have been doing a certain amount of so-called courier service, which means the carriage of people or important goods on an irregular basis, in light airplanes, in certain parts of the country. This is a part of the Office of Civilian Defense, under Mr. Landis, and does not come under our supervision at all. Their relations have been directly with the Army. Mr. SADOWSKI. The reason I asked that was that we have a field at Detroit which they use and I know that they were just organized recently, and I did not know just how it was functioning or where it got its authority from and I did not know whether it was just strictly a State agency, or a Federal agency. Mr. BURDEN. No; it is a national organization in which these men volunteer their services. They are supervised by the Office of Civilian Defense and I think the service is paid for by the Army. I have seen some statement about it being taken over by the Army. I do not know of my own knowledge whether that is correct or not. Mr. SADOWSKI. The thing, the one thing that I was particularly interested in in connection with the C. A. P. was the fact that I understand they are buying certain air fields, landing fields; leasing and buying them, and I just wondered whether you had any supervision over that organization or not and over control of the airfields or airports? Mr. BURDEN. I had not heard that they were buying landing fields. I know that they have leased airfields for this purpose, and they may well be buying them but I have not heard that they are. Mr. HARLESS. Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Harless. Mr. HARLESS. I have two questions, Mr. Chairman. Do you maintain airports or do you lease airports from private property owners? Mr. BURDEN. No, sir. We make a contract with the contractor for the training and he makes all the arrangeemnts so far as the airfields are concerned. For example, a contractor will come to us and say, "I have a certain number of planes. I can train 15 men." We will make a contract with him at so many dollars per hour to do that training, and then he makes all of his own arrangements, so far as airport, hangar and so forth are concerned. Mr. HARLESS. Now, at the present time, you limit your training entirely to military and naval personnel; you are not training any civilians? Mr. BURDEN. No. Mr. HARLESS. I have an interest in it, because you have taken people whom you say have gone into the transport aviation service, and some have become ferry pilots. Mr. BURDEN. Since last July we have trained nothing but men who were either in the enlisted reserve or on active duty for the Army or Navy. |