for it. There will be hundreds of new towns which will require service, and people will say, "Hurry up and build airways to these new towns" and "Don't bother to wait to put in this new radio system." If we have not made adequate technical studies to be positive that the new system is good enough to warrant scrapping the old, we will inevitably follow the path of least resistance and condemn our country forever to an outworn system of air navigation. That is a matter of great importance I think.

To return to the broader problem-we will undoubtedly have many of the important elements necessary for commercial aviation expansion when the peace is signed-there will be enormous public interest in aeronautical expansion, greatly expanded reserve facilities, tens of thousands of trained engineers, hundreds of thousands of trained pilots and mechanics. Those elements will exist when the war is over.

On the other hand the conversion of these assets to peacetime purposes will be a slow and difficult task.

Technical developments for military purposes, particularly in the engine field, will be useful for post-war commercial airplanes, but it is much less than one would think, so far as its utility for commercial purposes is concerned. Inevitably most of our research facilities are devoted to developing specific types of military aircraft and curing teething troubles in service airplanes. If something goes wrong in a service airplane at this moment it is essential that it be corrected at once if we are going to win the war, and that means that all wind tunnel facilities and all service facilities must be devoted to doing that job. It means that those people cannot work on basic advances, which means big improvements in the art, and they probably cannot start working on that until the war is over, or nearly over. So, we must not expect that the mere fact that we treble our research facilities means that we are going to get a 300 percent improvement in the airplane right after the war. There is going to be a big time lag there. Mr. WOLVERTON. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wolverton.

Mr. WOLVERTON. You are speaking at the present time of post-war conditions.

Mr. BURDEN. Yes.

Mr. WOLVERTON. I would like to inquire of you whether you can suggest anything to this committee in addition to what is already the law and what is provided for in the proposed amendment to the law, that would properly prepare our country for the post-war conditions.

Mr. BURDEN. Well, I think that it is very well covered in the bill, with one exception. I would like to see some specific suggestion that a survey of private flying possibilities be carried out by the administration. I am going to bring that up here later. I think that is going to be a very important thing and where it is included in the general term air commerce, I think it should be spelled out.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Let me make my position plain to you.

This committee, over a period of many years, has considered aviation legislation. We have sought at all times to keep in step with the industry, both from an operating and producing standpoint. In fact it has been our desire, and I think in a general way we have been forward-looking. At the present time much is being said about post

war conditions. I am therefore anxious to know from the witnesses who appear here before us as representatives of governmental agencies what, if any, studies they have given to the post-war conditions and what recommendations they can make to this committee in the way of legislation to be adopted at this time that will provide for those post-war conditions.

This committee is particularly interested in not only bringing aviation legislation up to date, but also to provide for the post-war conditions. I think you will find that the committee will be very responsive to any sort of suggestion or recommendation you would care to make.

Mr. BURDEN. Well, I appreciate that greatly, Congressman. I think you have gone a long way toward it in your proposed amendment in making these planning studies mandatory on both the Board and the Administration. I personally feel that research in those fields, both in the economic field and in the operational field, should be increased. I think that is probably going to mean an increase in appropriations for that particular purpose.

Mr. WOLVERTON. May I say right there that my interest is not merely to go a long ways?

Mr. BURDEN. No.

Mr. WOLVERTON. As you have suggested, but I want to know if we have gone as far as you can direct us to go.

Mr. BURDEN. Well, I will give special care to that, Congressman, in my statement. I think I have covered most of the major points.

It will be a long time before the majority of our wind tunnels can be set to work on really basic aerodynamic problems that will mean great basic advances in the future.

Moreover, our engineers are not designing a single commercial aircraft, though, of course, the military cargo planes of today will be usable for commercial purposes to a much greater degree than were the converted bombers of World War No. 1. When you realize that it takes a minimum of 3 years from the time when a large transport, say 200,000 pounds, is conceived until a fleet of them is ready for large-scale service, you can see that the United States will not be ready with a fleet of supermodern transports at the end of the war. It is going to be a big job to do that.

Mr. BOREN. Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Boren.

Mr. BOREN. What nation has any prospect of being ready?

Mr. BURDEN. I am not familiar with all of the plans of foreign nations. I do not believe many of them are more advanced than we are. Mr. BOREN. That is the point I feel we should emphasize. You made a statement just there that virtually put in reverse a remark that was made today, it seems to me, that Uncle Sam has not only kept pace on what should be done in private activities but in many instances he has led the way.

Mr. BURDEN. I think that is absolutely true.

Mr. BOREN. The legislation we have passed here has constantly been forward-looking to the point that it has stamped its provisions not only on the things that currently are met but on each advance that has come along. We laid down the running gear that appears to be forward-looking planning on which to build the body structure. I think

that the contributions that we have made have been mighty worth while indeed in view of world conditions.

Mr. BURDEN. Unquestionably.

Mr. BOREN. If we are tops in the world and if the legislation we have enacted has been effective enough to plan and develop such a top system, I would not want any implication left that we were not even, with the 3 years you describe, or any other time in connection with these important things, not far in advance of the world in our planning and our hopes.

Mr. BURDEN. No; I believe we are. I am merely raising these points to point out the necessity for the planning you have provided for in your proposed amendments. In other words, there are going to be a number of very important things that will have to be done immediately on cessation of hostilities that have to be planned now. We cannot just automatically expect everything to be ready.

Mr. BOREN. And it is your view that we are here laying down the tracks of all of the essential planning that can at the moment be done and with these tracks laid, whatever rolling stock we need to add onif that is a good illustration-can readily be adapted to the problems as they arise.

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Mr. BURDEN. That is right. I think that is an excellent illustration. I am merely emphasizing that I think that it is desirable to do something along the line of exactly what you propose, lay the tracks so as to be ready to get the job started when the time comes to start it.

Mr. WOLVERTON. I am interested in knowing what kind of tracks you want laid for the future. It is all well enough to say that we have got to lay tracks for the future, but I want to know what you mean when you say that. Where are the tracks?

Mr. BURDEN. The exact nature of the tracks will develop as the result of the studies are obtained which are under way. They will increase under your provisions, as I see it, under the proposed amendment. We will have to know, for example, what kind of airport system we are going to need for this country. That is going to depend upon whether the helicopter is going to be a great success and how widely it is going to be used. It is going to depend upon how many feeder services we are going to have, and that in turn will depend upon how economical the small medium-sized airplanes of the future will be.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Right there, is there any additional legislation necessary to carry out the sort of a program you are now mentioning? Mr. BURDEN. Well, of course, the actual construction program will have to be started after the war, I think, in order to find out the facts, which is what I think we should be doing now. I think you have provided for that in your proposed amendments.

Mr. WOLVERTON. That is what I am getting to. I want to know, as I have asked each witness who has come before us, what definite suggestions can you make as being necessary from the standpoint of legislation to enable you to do the things that you visualize will have to be done upon the conclusion of the war.

Now, there are two phases to that subject, as I see it. There is a domestic phase, and there is a foreign phase. So far as the domestic phase is concerned, I am inclined to think that the legislation

that has already been passed, together with the amendment we are now considering, will lay the groundwork for the administrative agencies of the Government to carry out whatever policies seem desirable.

But when you get into the foreign field, where you speak of the position we are to take in the future, I think a moment ago you said immediately upon the conclusion of the war we must be ready to step in, I would like to know what we can do now in a legislative way that will enable us to step in-into the foreign situation immediately upon the conclusion of the war, and hold our own.

The policy is yet to be determined with respect to post-war conditions.

Mr. BURDEN. That is correct.

Mr. WOLVERTON. As I see it, there are two policies, and one or the other, or a modification of one or the other, will have to be adopted. There is what we might term the freedom of the air, and there is the policy that recognizes the sovereignty of the air over each country.

Now, I can hardly conceive of us being able to pass legislation at this time that would enable this country immediately upon conclusion of the war to go in and claim the advantages of all of the air fields, and what not, that we have constructed under different sovereignties throughout the world, merely upon the basis that we have paid for them. What we have been permitted to do in time of war has been based upon military necessity, but when the war is ended military necessity has ceased to exist, and we then come to that competition which always exists as between nations in times of peace, as to the advantage of their individual or national trade.

Now, until those questions are decided as to the policy that is to be pursued, I am in a quandary as to what legislation we can pass at this time that will enable us to take advantage of the situation to the fullest extent when the war is over and it is that I would like you and other representatives from the Government, if you are in a position to do so, to recommend to this committee.

Mr. BURDEN. I do not believe that you can lay down the final blueprint now as you say, Congressman. I think final definite blueprints will probably emerge as these planning studies proceed and the Government policy becomes more definite. I think it is quite possible that when the planning stage has been gone through, there may have to be certain specific legislation enacted. I think we would just be driving blindfolded, if we tried now to draft legislation that would cover every possible alternative for the future. I think you should cover now some of the things that we know we are going to have to do, such as aeronautical education, training and planning. I think those are the three big important forward steps that are now to be taken.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Is it not true that at the present time there is a governmental agency made up of different representatives of the departments of the Government which is giving study to this very question you are discussing at this moment?

Mr. BURDEN. Yes. I am on that committee, sir.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Will you give us the name of that committee and the personnel who are serving upon it?

Mr. BURDEN. It is called the Committee on International Aviation Policy.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Who comprises that committee?

Mr. BURDEN. There are two committees. There is the top committee composed of the Assistant Secretary of War for Air, Mr. Lovett; the Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Air, Mr. Gates; the Assistant Secretary of State, Mr. Berle; the Under Secretary of Commerce, Mr. Wayne Taylor; the Assistant Director of the Budget, Mr. Wayne Coy; and the Chairman of the Civil Aeronautics Board, Mr. Welch Pogue. Under that committee there is a working committee, so-called, of which Mr. Pogue is chairman, and the members of that committee are Col. arold Harris, Chief of the Planning Section of the Air Transport Command; Lieutenant Commander Aldrich, of the Navy Department; Mr. Thomas Burke, of the State Department; and myself, and Mr. Paul David, of the Budget and Accounting Section. Mr. WOLVERTON. Right there, you say "myself.' What is your

position?

Mr. BURDEN. William A. M. Burden, Special Aviation Assistant to the Secretary of Commerce.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Now, that committee has been formed because the administration is looking into the future as to post-war conditions? Mr. BURDEN. That is correct.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Has that committee any recommendations that you know of to make to this committee to put in the form of legislation at this time?

Mr. BURDEN. No, sir. It has just commenced its work. It is just getting under way and it will be a considerable time before it reaches. the point of making recommendations.

Mr. WOLVERTON. Well, the different agencies that are represented in that committee certainly indicate how broad this question is.

Mr. BURDEN. Absolutely; yes, sir. It is most assuredly a very broad and very vital question and I am very happy to say that work is getting under way on it.

The CHAIRMAN. We can take it for granted that our rights in other countries after the war is over will depend upon international agreements.

Mr. BURDEN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And the policy as to other nations will be established by those agreements.

Mr. BURDEN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. With that action we will have more detailed information as to what our opportunity might be to adopt policies that will fit in with that agreement.

Mr. BURDEN. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. And, is it not true also that the extent to which our airplanes may reach the other nations of the world after the war is over is going to depend upon what financial support is given them? Mr. BURDEN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There is a bread-and-butter problem even for the aviation industry and in order to go under private ownership it has got to have compensation that will enable it to function.

Mr. BURDEN. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you not think it quite probable that the normal commercial business between our country and many of these countriess where our fliers are now transporting property would not be enough to support the aviation services?