On the Motion of the CHAIRMAN OF pressing our sympathy with Her Majesty COMMITTEES ordered

That no Private Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a Second Time after Friday the 12th Day of June next:

That no Bill confirming any Provisional Order of the Board of Health, or authorizing any Inclosure of Lands under Special Report of the Inclosure Commissioners for England and Wales, or for confirming any Scheme of the Charity Com missioners for England and Wales, shall be read a Second Time after Tuesday the 16th Day of June next :

That no Bill confirming any Provisional Order made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, shall be read a Second Time after Tuesday the 16th Day of June

That when a Bill shall have passed this House with Amendments, these Orders shall not apply to any new Bill sent up from the House of Commons which the Chairman of Committees shall report to the House is substantially the same as the Bill so amended.

Order of the Day for the Second Read- Bill. The right hon. Baronet had preing read.

against the expediency and possibility of extending the present system so as to make it national. Last year it was stated in the second Report of the Scotch Education Commission that

Upon the whole we think it must be admitted that the Privy Council system neither is, nor can it by any alteration be enlarged into, a national system."

in that way than by Act of Parliament, because, if the arrangement did not answer, it could then be easily altered. He also thought it better to leave the increase or diminution of the building grant in like manner to the discretion of the Education Committee of the Privy Council. He had no objection to the appointment of a Minister of Education, if work enough were given to that functionary to perform, and if Two years ago a Committee of the House they clothed him with active powers. If of Commons was appointed to inquire into he had, for instance, the initiative in the subject of Education at the instance of matters of elementary education, the con- Sir John Pakington, and before that Comtrol of endowed schools and of educa- mittee a great number of witnesses were tional charities, then he might possibly examined-among others Mr. Lingen, who have work enough for a Cabinet Minister; gave it as his opinion that it would be imbut if he were to be tied down within the possible to extend the present system four corners of the present Bill, the work throughout the whole country; that we might just as well be done by a permanent must fall back upon local organization of Under Secretary with an efficient staff of some kind, and that he considered the orclerks. He was of opinion that it was an ganization of the parish schools in Scotobjection to the Bill that it was intended, land a type well worth studying for this as stated by the noble Duke (the Duke of country. He went on to say that he should Marlborough) in introducing the measure, prefer the local organization, which would to make the existing system a national have the best chance of being adopted in system. While it must be admitted that this country. Whether it were based on the present system had effected much good, the county, the union, or the parish he yet it must be at the same time allowed should look upon as a matter of comparathat it had several grave defects. It was tive indifference. Again, the Rev. William a very extravagant system-it had a need- Kennedy, one of Her Majesty's Inspectors less multiplication of schools and school- for Lancashire, with an experience of masters and Inspectors; and he understood twenty years, declared that he saw no that the other night the Chancellor of the other mode, after long consideration, by Exchequer stated that the increase in the which assistance could be extended to negCivil Service Estimates was partially due lected districts; that he was of opinion to the Vote for Education. There was also that a feeling was springing up in favour inequality in the way in which it pressed of rate-supported schools, and that he on those who maintained the schools, and thought it absolutely necessary to constithere was a total absence of that local tute local bodies for the management of organization, which the best judges of the the schools; adding that he did not see matter had always said was absolutely that the religious difficulty need interfere necessary for the efficient working of a with the plan, provided the Conscience national system. Again, the present sys- Clause was universally imposed, and that tem did not meet the requirements of those he was strongly in favour of that being districts which most required assistance; done. Such were the opinions not only of for it was in the great towns, and not in an Inspector of great experience, but of a the rural districts that the machinery for clergyman of the Church of England; and extending the advantages of education was it was not only his individual opinion, but most wanted. Neither did the Bill check he believed that the majority of the clergy expenditure, but tended greatly to increase of the Church of England were not opit. He did not wish to see the present posed to the Conscience Clause, stating it system interfered with where it was work- to be the result of his experience, as an ing well, for it had done a considerable Inspector in Lancashire, that he knew amount of good; but when they were only of one clergyman there who would going to occupy new ground they ought not act upon it in his schools. The noble to adopt a system founded on a sounder Earl below him, he might add, then Lord basis, and which would prove more effi- John Russell, submitted to the House of cient. He thought there was an over- Commons, in 1856, a series of Resolutions, whelming preponderance of opinion among the 7th, 8th, and 9th of which were as persons well informed on the subject follows:

"8. That, after the 1st of January, 1858, when any school district shall have been declared to be deficient in adequate means for the education of the poor the Quarter Sessions of the Peace for the county, city, or borough should have power to impose a school rate.

"9. That where a school rate is imposed a school committee elected by the ratepayers, should appoint the schoolmasters and mistresses, and make regulations for the management of the schools."-[3 Hansard, cxl. 1971.]

a

"7. That it is expedient that in any school dis- ing his best thanks to the noble Duke and trict where the means of education arising from to Her Majesty's Government for bringing endowment, subscription, grants, and school pence shall be found deficient, and shall be declared to forward a Bill characterized by so many be so by the Committee of Privy Council for good proposals, and so well calculated to Education, the ratepayers should have the power promote the cause of education. He was of taxing themselves for the erection and mainte- himself in favour of the Bill, and that for nance of a school or schools. some of the reasons which had been urged against it by the noble Earl (the Earl of Airlie). He looked upon it, in the first place, as a step in the right direction, inasmuch as it placed matters of great importance in connection with education on a somewhat settled footing, so that the promoters of schools might with some certainty know how they were situated, instead of being liable, as hitherto, to the disadvantages arising from repeated changes at the caprice of the Privy Council. As to the Conscience Clause as framed in the Bill, he could only say that it met his own individual views, and he believed the views of a very large portion of the clergy; but he believed there was large portion of the clergy who would not be satisfied with the Conscience Clause proposed in the other Bill. If by means of such a measure a long vexed question could be set at rest, as he trusted it might, a great benefit would, he thought, be conferred on the Church and on the nation. He was glad, he might add, that rating clauses were not included among its provisions, inasmuch as he was of opinion that their introduction would be premature, until after the proposed general Census was taken, and the educational wants of the country thus accurately ascertained; for there were facts before them which would show, if he were not mistaken, that in the different dioceses of England there was a much larger number of the children of the poor now brought under the influence of education than was supposed. He did not think it necessary to go into the details on which the noble Earl (the Earl of Airlie) had touched; if there were any defects they might be remedied in Committee; but he thought there were some very essential provisions in this Bill, well calculated to help forward the cause of education, and he was prepared to give the measure his hearty support.

Now, such were the Resolutions proposed by the noble Earl twelve years ago, and he had not, he believed, since changed his opinions on the subject. Sir John Pakington was also in favour of rate-supported schools; while a meeting which was recently held at Manchester, at which the compulsory rating principle was advocated, was largely attended by clergymen, by whom no disapproval of it was expressed. For his own part, knowing how well it had worked in Scotland, he must confess that he was strongly attached to the rating principle, and as a landowner, and looking only at the results of the system in a pecuniary point of view, he felt that he gained more by having a welleducated tenantry and labourers on his estate than he should have had to pay in consequence of any charge which was imposed on him to secure that object. If they wished to extend education throughout the country, and they were driven to choose between the Bill of the Govern

ment and that of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Bruce) in the other House, he should greatly prefer the latter. The two were totally different in principleone must kill the other. Entertaining those views, and believing that the Bill of the Government was a complete abnegation of the principle that the State ought to educate the people, he should move that it be read a second time that day three months.

Amendment moved to leave out ("now") and insert ("this Day Three Months.") (The Earl of Airlie.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY said, that to a certain extent he concurred in the opinions expressed by his noble Friend (the Earl of Airlie) in regard to the Bill. Some of the details of the measure seemed to be extremely useful, and reflected credit on the Government; but it was much to be lamented that they had thought it ne

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY said, that not having been present when this Bill was introduced, and not having had an opportunity before of expressing an opinion upon it, he was desirous of tender-cessary to embody the whole system of

1312 education, with all its mass of details, in made, and should not be applicable to ina Bill. He should have thought that the stances in which public money was given whole history of elementary education in in aid of schools in other shapes. Surely, this country, and the present position of conscientious feelings were as much enthe question of education showed that, at titled to respect in the one case as in the all events, the time had not yet arrived other? With regard to the proposed exwhen they could advantageously stereotype tension of the grants to districts and schools all the principles and the details connected which did not now participate in them, he with their system in an Act of Parliament. thought the Government had taken a wise There had been so many differences of step, and he did not quarrel with them opinion and minor difficulties to overcome because they did it in a tentative manin the history of elementary education in ner. It was wise to endeavour to remedy this country, that it had been mainly those educational deficiencies which existed owing to the tentative nature of the sys- in poor country districts, where a difficulty tem that education had been developed was now experienced in providing schools. to its present extent; and on the whole it Another part of the Bill which he wished had been attended with great success. He to notice related to the educational Census. regretted, therefore, that the Government On reading the Bill, when he arrived at now proposed to Parliament such a depar- Part II., and read attentively the most ture from that mode of proceeding. His elaborate provisions which it made for an noble Friend behind him had spoken with educational Census, he could not help great force as to the inconvenience that coming to the conclusion that there must would be felt if, when some slight varia- have originally been a third part to the tion was needed in the elaborate manage- measure, which had since been abandoned; ment clauses contained in that Bill, or for, after providing a most elaborate mawhen some other minor change of that chinery for obtaining statistical informakind was wanted, they must come before tion as to the state of education in the Parliament with a Bill for the purpose of various parts of the country, there the making it. The most rev. Prelate (the matter was abruptly left by the Bill. He Archbishop of Canterbury) seemed to think believed they would never provide a rethat great advantage would be derived medy for those defects which were so from the Bill by the knowledge it would much felt in those districts where volunafford to the clergy and the ministers of tary zeal did not supply the necessary other denominations as to the nature of means of education, without having rethe rules that were to be followed. He course to some form or other of rating. was surprised at that statement, because It was said the introduction of rating in the existing Revised Code had been fully any shape would destroy voluntary zeal; discussed in Parliament, possessed very but surely this meant no more that a much the character of an Act of Parlia- rating system would prove so much supement, and was as well known to the clergy rior to the voluntary system that the latter as any Act of Parliament could be; and would be abandoned. But he thought he should have thought the information they were apt to attach rather too much to be found in the one would be as easily importance to voluntary efforts for the found in the other. The most rev. Prelate support of schools, valuable though they had spoken with feelings of satisfaction of were. He never could see how it should the Conscience Clause as it stood in the be regarded as so extremely satisfactory Bill; but, for himself, he thought it was that in all parts of the country just those far from embodying the only just principle persons who were most generous, and who, which should regulate the application of like the clergy, were called upon from their grants of public money for educational position to make efforts of that kind, purposes. That principle, he held, ought should have the whole burden thrown on to be this-that in every case where grants them, and that the great mass of the comof public money were made for the pur- munity who were well able to pay should poses of education, full liberty ought to escape from contributing to a charge which be given to the children of all denomina- was for the universal public benefit. He tions to attend the schools without any thought it would probably be wise in the interference with the conscientious convic. first instance by a permissive Act to enable tions of the parents. He could not under certain districts to rate themselves for the stand on what possible ground they could purpose of education, and the opportunity defend a regulation that would apply only would then be afforded of judging wheto cases in which building grants were ther the system might not be carried