of rifled guns suitable for the fortifications that the discussion upon the point should in process of erection. He would find, be taken either upon a separate Notice on however, upon inquiry at the War Office, going into Supply, or else should be postthat attention had been steadily pointed in poned till they came to Vote 18, the Vote that direction for many years past. Changes for Administration of the Army. The right were being made so rapidly in the patterns hon. Baronet, he must admit, had made a of heavy guns that it would have been very full and frank statement of his intenmost imprudent to provide these until the tions; out some little time was necessary works were ready to receive them. Up to for considering the plan which he had the time that he left the War Office, the submitted, before its discussion could be patterns of heavy guns were being con- usefully approached. Without pledging tinually altered, and the largest patterns, himself to adopt the principles recom. in fact, had hardly been decided on. Rapid mended by Lord Strathnairn's Committee, provision of the armament, however, was he (the Marquess of Hartington) admitted not nearly as pressing as the completion that the intentions both of Lord de Grey of the fortifications; and, as far as he and himself had pointed in the same direcknew, the armament had been provided in tion. And he wished to explain that the every case as soon as the works were in a reason why nothing had been done in the state sufficiently forward for the purpose. matter, before he himself left office was The right hon. Baronet would find that for that the Treasury recommended that the years past a large sum had been annually scheme should not be actually set to work taken for heavy guns for land service; and till the details had been thoroughly exaall those made in the Arsenal which were mined, and, among other matters, till the not for the purposes of the navy must, of financial bearings of the scheme had been course, have been for the purposes of for- carefully investigated. He was not surtifications. A point, which he was not prised that the Committee, presided over prepared to discuss at present, but which by Lord Strathnairn, should have found it would demand careful consideration by the necessary, at the very threshold of their Committee, was the statement of the right labours, to come to adecision upon the larger hon. Baronet that he intended to act upon question of amalgamation. He was of opithe recommendation he had received, and nion that although the Committee was one to appoint a head of the Arsenal at Wool- admirably adapted for considering the wich. That point had been considered question of transport, he did not think its over and over again, and was warmly de- constitution was that which would have bated before a Committee of that House, been adopted if it had been intended to presided over by the right hon. Gentleman refer to the Committee the subject of the Member for Limerick (Mr. Monsell), army organization generally, or even that and the subject was one on which eminent of the organization of the Civil Departauthorities held very different opinions. ment. The composition of the Committee He admitted that there might be many was too purely military to render its conadvantages in the plan contemplated by clusions such as the House would be wilthe right hon. Baronet. At the same time ling to accept without hesitation. he felt strongly that the appointment of only civilian upon it was Sir William head of the establishment at Woolwich Power, the Commissary General. He is a must weaken the feeling of responsibility man of very large experience; but he on the part of the heads of the different (the Marquess of Hartington) thought the manufacturing Departments, thereby tend- House, while agreeing that there should ing to lessen their efficiency. There was be a considerable military element in the one Vote showing a very considerable Committee, would be of opinion that in increase-Vote 14, for Works-upon which a matter of finance and public credit there the right hon. Baronet had not entered should have been much more of the civiinto any explanation, probably by accident lian element than was possessed by this -[Sir JOHN PAKINGTON: Hear!]-and he Committee. The right hon. Gentleman would doubtless take an opportunity in had told them that the new Department reply of supplying the omission. It was would lead to economy. He hoped it hardly possible to discuss satisfactorily, would, and possibly it might; but he was and without some special opportunity, the not without some apprehensions that ultiviews which had been put before them mately it might be the cause of increased with respect to army and War Office re-expenditure. On this point, however, he organization; and he accordingly suggested had a strong opinion-that in any scheme.

The

of army organization the House ought not | two years 350,000 breech-loaders had been to lose any portion of the control which, got ready. He believed that the 100,000 through the Secretary of State, it at pre- provided at Enfield had been turned out by sent possessed. For that reason, he should the very day named, and 50,000 had been prefer to have had the civilian element provided at Birmingham. He should like more largely represented in the Commis- his right hon. Friend (Sir John Pakington) sion. He knew that on the Army Esti- to explain where the remaining breechmates it was competent to hon. Members loaders had come from, because there had to discuss any of those subjects at length; been only 300,000 new rifles in store. With but, as a matter of convenience, he thought reference to what the noble Marquess had it would be better not to go into details said on the subject of the great guns, he on the organization of the army till this thought it fortunate that he (the Marquess question came before the House in a more of Hartington) had made no considerable direct form. provision for them, because the pattern had since been altered, and because the expense would not now be so great. The original arrangement was that the money for the building of the fortifications should be raised by loan, and that the armaments were to be provided out of the annual Estimates. The approximate Estimate of the total cost for guns, projectiles, gun carriages and waggons for works under Defence Act of 1860 was £1,885,000, of which sum, the amount provided during the first seven years was only £85,000. If they went on at that rate they would not have the necessary armaments provided before seventeen years. It struck

GENERAL PEEL said, that the noble Marquess had commenced by drawing a comparison between the present Estimates and those for the last year during which he (the Marquess of Hartington) had been in office as Minister for War. The noble Marquess was perfectly correct in saying that the estimated military expenditure for the current year was greater than the actual expenditure of 1865-6 by £1,340,667; but the practical question for the House was what had been the cause of that increase. With the expenditure of 1865-6, the War Department of that day was not able to fill up the ordinary casu. alties in the army; they had not a breech-him that if they could afford to do withloading rifle in the service. There is a great increase in the Estimates on Votes 12 and 13; but during the time the noble Marquess was at the head of the Department it had not fixed upon a pattern. In fact, it was at a stand-still. Had the increase in the Estimates produced the desired effects? The increased pay of the army raised the Votes by the amount of between £300,000 and £400,000, but that increase had put an end to what he confessed to have felt to be a source of great anxiety during two years. Last year was an exceptional year. No fewer than 32,000 men were entitled to their discharge, and their places must be filled up. But there was no longer any anxiety about that, though it had been said that the 2d. and 3d. additional pay which he proposed last year would not prove a sufficient inducement to men to continue in the service. He hoped that the readiness with which the ten years' men had re-entered the service would be regarded as an answer to much that was said about the treatment of men in the army. They found that the persons now offering themselves were not men taken into a public-house and there made to enlist, but men who had already served their ten years in the army. Within VOL. CXCI. [THIRD SERIES.]

out them for seventeen years they might as well do without them altogether. On the point of the increased expenditure he must remind the noble Marquess that the Royal Commission had been appointed by the Government of which he was a Member, and in their Report the Commissioners stated that a natural consequence of carrying out what they recommended would be to increase the cost of the army. There were several points in the speech of his right hon. Friend to which he did not think it necessary to advert; but he wished to observe that he did not exactly understand how or to what extent the recommendations which he himself had made on the subject of the Army of Reserve were to be carried out by his right hon. Friend. He thought it would be advisable to allow men who had served two-thirds of their existing engagements in the army to commute for the rest of their military service by joining the Army of Reserve; and that, on similar conditions, men purchasing their discharge might be allowed to commute for a portion of what they had to pay. With respect to the manufacturing establishments he did not see how it was possible to improve them. He should attach more importance to the indivi

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dual selection that might be made of a the present system, of providing, by an Controller than he should do to the scheme economical arrangement, an efficient Army itself. He had every confidence in the Controller and other officers of the new Departments.

of Reserve. He believed that the more these matters were discussed the stronger would become the opinion of the country that things were not in a satisfactory condition, and that we had not that strength at home which ought to be maintained here for the purposes of defence.

MR. WYLD said, he would wish to call the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the conduct of the Ordnance Survey, which was very unsatisfactory. There was great difficulty in obtaining copies of the surveys, and the object of the heads of the Department appeared to be chiefly to amuse themselves with photographic pursuits. He thought the people of Scotland had the greatest possible reason to complain of the manner in which their interests had been neglected, and the backward state of the survey as regarded that country.

COLONEL GILPIN said, he was glad that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War had adopted the suggestion of his right hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Huntingdon (General Peel), which would prevent the War Department from calling on the Militia to furnish recruits to the army during a time of peace. He did not, however, understand, what advantage would be derived from placing under one command the forces which the right hon. Baronet proposed to place under that able and courteous officer, General Lindsay.

LORD ELCHO said, he desired to express the pleasure he felt at the statement of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War-that his object was to introduce unity of action into the administrative Departments of the army. He concurred, too, in what had been said in favour of Sir Henry Storks and General Balfour; but, whatever the satisfaction at what his right hon. Friend had been doing to improve the administration of the army, he confessed that with reference to the other part of his statement-that bearing on the amount of our force-he did not think that our present position or the proposed changes could be looked on with any great satisfaction. His right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War proposed a change with reference to the Reserves; but even his right hon. and gallant Friend (General Peel) who proposed the change last year did not seem to understand in what manner the change was to be carried out. The House had, however, to deal with this broad fact-that the Army Estimates were increasing, steadily increasing. His right hon. and gallant Friend had just accounted for some part of the increase; but we had this increase in the Votes without any great available increase in the number of men. The Estimates amount to £13,500,000, and after this Was the hon. and gallant enormous expenditure the utmost force we General's command to be an actual one? could put in line for the defence of the The Militia were, under the Mutiny Act, country-he spoke, of course, of regular to be in time of war taken up for home troops-was 40,000. He ventured to say service; but during the last war they did that this was a result wholly dispropor-more-they not only filled up gaps in the tionate to that enormous expenditure; ranks of the regular army on foreign serand he believed that the country would vice, but sent out a larger force than had not go on paying such sums without a been in the first instance embarked for the more satisfactory result. He had placed Crimea. The Yeomanry were under the on the paper a Motion for to-morrow even- Mutiny Act; but he did not suppose ing, with the object of obtaining a Com-right hon. Friend proposed to put the mission on an Army of Reserve. The Re- Volunteers under it, because they appeared cruiting Commission did not go into that to dislike very much the control of the question. That had been distinctly stated Horse Guards. He thought the proposed in "another place" by a noble Lord who amalgamation of reserved forces required was a Member of the Commission, and who some further information. stated that the Commissioners had not touched on that branch of the subject, because it was too vast a one. He should postpone his Motion till after Easter, when he proposed to bring under the notice of the House the question of military organization, and the means we possessed, under

his

It ap

MAJOR WALKER, in allusion to the deficiency of officers in the Militia force, quoted from a Return stating the deficiency in this respect in various ranks. peared that the deficiencies in the rank of lieutenant were 756, and in the rank of ensign and second lieutenant 1,219. With

SIR HARRY VERNEY expressed the pleasure with which he had heard the announcement that 30,000 of the Militia force were to be brigaded with the Regular army, the result of which would, he hoped, be advantageous to both branches of the service. It was a serious consideration that there were only 40,000 men of the Regular army disposable in these islands, for the defence of the country in case of invasion, while the enormous sum of £13,000,000 or £14,000,000 was expended on the Army Estimates. There was one thing which he should like to see decided upon in the army-namely, a shorter time of service. He thought that four or five years was a sufficiently long time in which to make a good infantry soldier; and he should like to see some such length of time fixed upon for the duration of military service. By this means a more intelligent class of men would be obtained as recruits. He believed that if men could become soldiers for four or five years only, there would be hardly a family in the country who would not like to have one of its members in the army. He wanted to see more military training for the whole population introduced into our schools. He would suggest that in each of the schools which were under the Privy Council there should be some sort of military training afforded, by the engagement of a sergeant from the army to drill the boys. With regard to the Reserved force, it was not a satisfactory state of things that the Staff should be drawn from the Line, and he should like to see the Volunteer force and the Militia supplied with a Staff of their own.

regard to the last figures, he felt bound wasted on a useless arm. He felt bound to explain that the deficiency was caused to express his gratitude for what the Goby an Order issued some years ago for the vernment had already done for the service. cessation of the rank of ensign and second They had increased the numbers and effilieutenant; but it was notorious that that ciency of the Militia, and he trusted that Order was issued solely on the ground that they would now address themselves to the it was utterly impossible to fill up va- task of increasing the popularity of the cancies in that rank. This did not repre- service among the class which commanded sent the full amount of the deficiency; for the force. it was well known that the first result of the permanent embodiment of the Militia would be that a very large number of gentlemen would find it impossible for them to serve, and probably from 300 to 400 would at once retire. Those gentlemen held their commissions when the duties were confined to a short annual training, but the other calls upon their time were incompatible with permanent embodiment. The subject was no doubt a difficult one, and he agreed that they could offer no pecuniary reward that would attract young men of good families into the Militia as officers. They might, however, find other ways to attract them. At present a Militia officer's duty was one course of drudgery, and if the country took no interest in the service they could not expect that young men of family should do so. He believed that if they associated the Militia regiments with each other-had regiments of the Line brigaded with them-adopted a system of inspection-and treated the Militia as an honourable branch of Her Majesty's service, instead of, as a necessary evil, they would be able to obtain a better class of young men for officers. He was glad to hear that the billeting system was to be changed, for it was almost impossible to preserve discipline under the billeting system. Until the scheme for the amalgamation of the Reserves was produced, he thought that it would be premature to discuss it at any length; but holding the Militia to be the younger brother of the Line, he must say that if, by drawing the Militia closer to the Volunteers, the relations between the Militia and the Line should be rendered less close he should regard it as a great evil. He should have liked to hear that the Government proposed to place breech-loading rifles in the hands of the Militia; especially as the number of converted rifles now in store must be so considerable that there could be no difficulty at least in sending a sufficient number of the new arm to each Militia regiment to enable instruction in the new drill to be given this year, so that another year's training might not be

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK said, he considered that civilians had a right to indulge in military criticism on the ground that they paid the Estimates, which were in. creasing year by year, so much so that one branch of the defensive service cost as much now as both did in the time of the Duke of Wellington, and, in fact, our army was the most expensive in the world. He would not begrudge the expense if we had a satisfactory army; but it appeared there

were only 40,000 men we could depend | Baronet had stated the whole case with a upon in case of need. Little and dear as candour seldom displayed by Secretaries the army was, there was much internal of State for War, and had clearly set forth dissatisfaction; for scarcely a night passed the numerous defects in our system and but a military grievance was ventilated in the modes by which he was about to rethe House, and there were many blunders dress them. This would be most satisfacof administration, such as those which had tory to the country. The subject had been been recently exposed in connection with treated so ably by those who had preceded the removal of troops-mistakes of a cha- him that it was not necessary for him to racter that could not, as a rule, be committed go at all into detail. He only wished to by business men, whose success depended say that the right hon. Baronet had shown upon their own efforts. There was a want them how necessary it was to retrace the of a responsible head. The fact appeared steps taken by former Secretaries of War, to be that there were several heads, and it for his opinion was that from 1848 down was most difficult to fix responsibility to the time when the right hon. and gallant when anything wrong occurred. The best Gentleman the Member for Huntingdon places in the army, instead of being bought (General Peel) took office we had not had and sold, ought to be thrown open to the a Minister in this Department of the public best men, who should rise by their merits, service worthy to be called a Secretary at as the leaders of parties in the House of War. The right hon. Baronet who was Commons did. With an open army and now in office was going back to the old an open navy we should give a chance of system, and much good would be the readvancement to men who might become sult. The right hon. Baronet now profuture Wellingtons and Nelsons. He was posed to appoint an officer over all the sorry the right hon. Baronet did not look manufacturing Departments of the army, with a little more complacency on the and this would in his (General Dunne's) Volunteers. It was very hard that they opinion be found most advantageous; but should give their time and energies and it was only going back to the system of still have to pay in money for the liberty the Duke of Wellington. He must, howof serving their country. They ought to ever, object to the amalgamation of the receive a little more from the State to save Militia and the Volunteers; it would be them from being out of pocket. It was impossible to weld two forces that were most unhandsome of the country to allow entirely different in construction, training, that, especially as we trusted so much to and discipline. The Militia were under the Volunteer force, and its requirements martial law; while the Volunteers were could be amply met by a tenth of the only under the discipline of their own money which was now as good as thrown will. He could not speak too highly of into the sea. the patriotism of the Volunteers; but he could not call them soldiers or a Reserve army. Volunteers might be very well called an auxiliary force; but, technically and truly, they were not a Reserve, and he hoped, before it was too late, the Government would see the error they were about to commit in the amalgamation. It would not be good for the Volunteers-they did not wish it; it would certainly be injurious to the Militia, and it could never be carried out.

GENERAL DUNNE said, the hon. Member, who had just addressed the House, had brought forward a number of grievances upon which hon. Members were accustomed to descant, but they might be easily disposed of. The expense of the army was to be in a great measure accounted for by the high price of wages in England; the comparatively small number of men retained in this country was owing to the large numbers drafted for service abroad; the disasters, which had happened in reference to the supply of the army when on active service, were chiefly owing to the failure of contractors to fulfil their contracts; while the reason why the purchase system had been retained was that the country would not sufficiently pay those officers who retired, worn out. Taking the statement of the right hon. Baronet as a whole, he thought it impossible not to be gratified with it. The right hon.

MR. PUGH said, he hoped a fair trial would be given to the experiment of amalgamating the Militia with the Volunteers. He thought that many of the grievances of the two forces would be done away by that judicious step. There should be no jealousy whatever between them. The Militia were drawn from the same classes as the army, which had done so much for the glory of the country. The Volunteers were drawn from the middle classes, who