the military expenditure was put down at £15,500,000. As the Estimates increased, however, the number of men employed grew smaller. That had been the case since the present Government came into office. In 1866, the Army Estimates were £14,340,000, and the number of men was 138,117. In 1867, the Estimates were £15,252,200, and the number of men 139,163. This year the Estimates were £15,455,400, and the number of men 138,691. The amount for the general staff of officers was also increasing. The sum voted for the general staff last year was £98,291; this year, with fewer men, it was £101,815. But these were only small matters. That which lay at the bottom of our military expenditure, was what might be called the double govern

between the army and navy with regard | Effective and Non-effective services. In to the transport of troops, and every 1855, when we were engaged in a war expense occasioned to the navy by trans- with one of the great powers of Europe, porting troops should be charged on ac- and maintained a large body of contingent count to the army. One important point troops, our military expenditure was in connection with the accounts before £13,721,158. Of course, the accounts them was the question of audit. The hon. then did not include certain things which Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) said were included now. [Colonel HERBERT : it was the theory that it should not be Did they include the Ordnance charges?] hurried. To that might be added another They did not. Again, in 1815, at the theory, that it should be independent. It close of the great war, when we had was hardly credible that these accounts 246,000 men under arms, the military examounting to £15,500,000 was submitted penditure of the country was £19,869,000. to no independent audit whatever. What These figures showed how the Army Estiprotection was there for the public? The mates grew. This year-a year of peace system adopted was one of the worst that could be conceived; for the gentleman who audited the accounts had at the same time the payment of the money, and he would be a most disinterested gentleman if he were in a hurry to expose any error which he might discover he had made. There was one thing very noticeable, too, in reference to the audit, and that was, that whatever errors might be discovered, it very rarely happened that the money which had been improperly expended was recovered. In a year of profound peace Parliament was called upon to vote £15,500,000 for military purposes, and in return for that sum we had the smallest army maintained by any country in the world which professed to exercise any power. If the House would accept the proposition he was about to submit-ment of the army. He did not think that namely, that the troops in the colonies that was a subject to be discussed on a should be withdrawn, we might very question of military Estimates. He had largely reduce our military expenditure. given notice that he should take an occa The right hon. and gallant Member for sion of submitting that subject to the Huntingdon (General Peel) had said that House; because it involved, not merely no comparison could be instituted between matters of great constitutional importance, the cost of maintaining our army and that but questions of essential importance as of maintaining foreign armies, especially regarded economy in the army. There those of France and Prussia, because we was a double staff of officials to do work maintained troops in the colonies. But as which could be well done by one Departto France that was incorrect. France ment. When we compared the expense maintained in Algeria as large an army as of these two Departments with that of we had in India. He admitted that the the one Department in France or Prussoldier was better paid here than in any sia, we saw the cost which the double other country in the world, and he believed government of our army entailed. The that he was as well clothed and as well charge for the War Department was fed. He did not think that any economy £224,578. There were 621 employés in could be introduced into our army with the War Department, and 156 in the regard to the pay, clothing, or food of a Commander-in-Chief's Department, making soldier. As to the officers, considering the outlay they had to make, through the pernicious system of purchase, they were the worst-paid officers in the world. In 1835, a year of profound peace, our military expenditure was £5,626,713, including the

a total of 777 persons employed in the administration of the army. France, which had an army three times as numerous as ours, had only 480 clerks to administer her army, and the total cost of administration was 1,920,528f., or £76,838. The

French standing army amounted generally or 2s. a day in addition to his pension. to between 500,000 and 600,000 men, He hoped Sir Henry Storks would soon while ours was only 138,000. He had see his way to a sensible reduction in the recently had an opportunity of inspecting number of clerks. One of the items on the War Department at Berlin. Anyone which he desired to comment was that of who was acquainted with the arrangements £48,000 for agency. This sum the public in Pall Mall would be astonished on seeing were called upon to pay to certain gentlethe contrast exhibited by the Berlin De- men who acted as bankers for the army; partment. During the late war the Prus- but whose most important occupation was sian army consisted of between 400,000 the conducting of illicit arrangements beand 500,000 men, and it was administered tween officers for the sale and purchase in a way which commanded the admiration of commissions. It was one of the most of all who watched its proceedings. The pernicious military systems that had ever whole cost of the Prussian War Depart- existed, and the sooner this item disapment was 326,000 thalers, or £48,900 a peared from the Estimates the better it year. With these facts before them, he would be for the credit of everybody conthought it was clearly time to make some cerned. He hoped, indeed, his hon. Friend reforms in our War Department. The (Mr. Trevelyan) would succeed in carryright hon. Baronet was, like most Minis- ing a Motion of which he had given ters of State, very hopeful, and if his hope notice, and with it the disappearance of was to be realized it would be by the this charge. With regard to recruiting, employment of Sir Henry Storks and a considerable saving might be accomGeneral Balfour, than whom two more plished; for only those who had investicompetent gentlemen could with difficulty gated the matter could have any idea of be found. He (Mr. Otway) was strongly the unnecessary trouble which a recruit of opinion that no real economy would be had to undergo, or of the expense which obtained in this direction until the Horse attended his being bandied backwards and Guards were brought under the same roof forwards, and subjected to different examiwith the War Department, and an end nations. When a recruit was brought up was put to the ridiculous and overdone by the Marines, he was examined by a system of correspondence between the two medical man, and if he was rejected there offices. He remembered a recent instance. was no expense to the country; and this An hon. Member put a question to the plan, if generally adopted, would be serSecretary of State for War as to the land- viceable to the country with regard to ing of the 86th Regiment upon an island general recruiting. He now approached in which an epidemic was raging. He the most important point in which a subwas asked to postpone his question until stantial saving might be effected. It had communication could be made with the been asked, seeing that we had only 45,000 Horse Guards. He would give an instance troops for the defence of the country in of the circumlocution which existed. A case of attack, where were the remainder communication was sent the other day to of the 136,000 men the Committee were the office by an Adjutant General of Artil- asked to vote, and the answer had been lery. It was the custom for every letter that 48,000 were distributed over our to pass through the hands of several clerks, colonies. One would think that if soldiers each of whom made his sentiments known were enlisted and sent to the colonies, the by a memorandum on the back of the colonies would pay for their own defence. letter. On the occasion in question the The people of Australia, man for man, were letter was returned to the writer with fif- richer than the people of this country. But teen endorsements by clerks, the last of the colonies did not contribute their share. which was "This letter should be re- There was only one exception, and that ferred to the Adjutant General of Artil- was the unfortunate island of Ceylon, lery"-the very person by whom the letter which was called upon to pay for more men had been written. This was a specimen than were in fact sent there. At least, so of the "confusion worse confounded" it was stated. The cost was £146,000 a which now prevailed. He knew a gen- year; the contribution, £160,000. The tleman, too, who had assured him that his whole cost of our troops stationed in the employment in the War Department con- colonies was £3,388,023, of which they sisted entirely in stamping and copying returned to us £365,700, leaving a balance letters-work which could be done equally against us upon this head of £3,022,323. well by a non-commissioned officer at 1s. Expense, however, was not the only

.

drawback attendant upon the present dis- to the statement of the right hon. Baronet position of our troops; there was also himself, one-half of the force there might danger. Would any man in possession be dispensed with. Matters had changed of his senses contend that by any pos- very much since the days of Paul and sible amount of valour or arrangement Virginia, and sometimes the climate was 12,000 British troops could successfully little short of pestilential. He protested defend Canada from invasion? With such against our sending several thousands of an immense frontier, America, at any mo- European troops every year to climates of ment she chose to march into Canada, the most unhealthy character, and believed could swallow the British force at a mouth- that to be one of the greatest impediments ful, and the very presence there of a small to recruiting. If it were necessary to send British force was provocative of such an European troops there at all, such troops expedition. Malta cost us a large sum should be specially raised for the service. yearly. Besides being a great military Never were soldiers more satisfied than station, Malta was a great naval entrepôt; the European troops that had served and there were naval and military hospi- under the East India Company. The detals, naval and military prisons, a naval fence of all the West India islands must and military baking establishment-in be a maritime defence, and garrisons as fact, all the establishments were in double. a means of defence were but of little The place was not large enough to admit use. What happened with regard to of the manoeuvring of troops, and, as a Hong Kong? Dr. Dick, the principal meconsequence, the soldiers were suffering dical officer there, made a Report of the from lassitude and sickness in the warm sanitary state of the island, and recomseasons. It should be made essentially a mended the withdrawal of an European naval station, and the military expense regiment, with a view to the preservation, would at once be got rid of. The island as far as possible, of the health and effici should be garrisoned by marines, who ency of the British soldiers, and to a could be changed about with the marines diminution of the great expenditure arising of the Mediterranean fleet. Great good from casualties in a European regiment would accrue and much less expense stationed in such a climate, and his recomwould be incurred than at present; 6,500 mendation was supported by the General men would be set free for duty elsewhere. in command. That Report was never As for the guns at Malta, the Marine Ar- acted upon, and six months after it was tillery, the finest force in existence, could followed by another, in which Dr. Dick take care of them. He commended this said that it was now his duty to show to idea to the Secretary of State; but he what an extent the fears he then ventured supposed it would not have much effect to express had been realized. He then upon him. With regard to the particu proceeded to state that within little more lar Vote upon which he intended to test than three months deaths and invaliding the opinion of the House by a Motion, among the men to the amount of 66 per the hon. Member proceeded to quote the cent per annum had taken place; that 81 opinions of officers, civilians, and mili- out of 101 women and 71 out of 171 chiltary men, who were either heard orally dren had died, and that 11 officers had or to whom interrogations had been ad- died or were invalided within the quarter. dressed by the Committee moved for by The West India command furnished an the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield illustration of the way military affairs (Major Anson), as to the possibility of were managed by the War Department. superseding, or supplementing, British The West India command consisted of troops in the colonies by the employment 4,919 men, the cost of which was £282,172, of native troops. They sent British regi- and he now asked the Committee to listen ments to the West Indies, at a very con- to what followed. The staff employed in siderable expense, to be decimated, when commanding those 4,919 men-about as their places might be filled by troops large as a brigade or a major-general's belonging to a different race-for instance, command-consisted, among others, of Malays or Indian troops-having no affinity two general officers, two deputy-assistantwith the natives, and therefore not dan-adjutants-general, two assistant-quartergerous in case of disaffection amongst masters-general, two military secretaries, them. With regard to the Mauritius, it two aides-de-camp, four fort-adjutants, four was questionable whether it was necessary commandants, and nineteen clerks, and to maintain a garrison there, but according their pay amounted to £10,750. At the

Mauritius 2,000 men were stationed, and the cost was £132,700, and the staff consisted of one major-general, one deputyquarter-master-general, one military secretary, one aide-de-camp, one fort-major, and eight clerks. Their pay amounted to £8,880. Such a state of things was Enough to excite the attention of the country; and people would say that there was an absurd, lavish, and improper expenditure, two or three general officers being employed to do what would be the work of one colonel in the French or Prussian armies. The authorities at the Horse Guards would say that they must find employment for our general officers, and the general officers when abroad must have European troops, the consequence of which was that the country was saddled with a vast expenditure for purposes so small and useless. He did not venture to ask that in this year's Estimates any large reduction should be made; but he would ask the Committee to do that which could be done without in any way affecting the Fablic service. He proposed to withdraw half the garrison in the Mauritius, amounting to 958 men, and half the garrison in the West India, Windward, and Leeward Islands, amounting to three battalions, or 1,800 men. He would move that the number of men be diminished by 2,758.

now actually taken in hand, and which they expected to see dealt with in a manner which would lead to very beneficial results. The hon. Gentleman had alluded to 700 employés in that Department who, he said, had to do with only 136,000 men. But he omitted to mention the Militia and Volunteers, with which the Department had also to deal, making in all a force of 500,000 men. The hon. Gentleman had referred to the agency system, which he had discovered was maintained at great expense for the purchase and sale of commissions. He was surprised the hon. Gentleman had forgotten that the sum paid to Messrs. Cox nd Co. and other army agents was paid for their services in distributing pay, and acting as very useful and efficient bankers to the army in general. Though under the admirable arrangements of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Huntingdon (General Peel) the standard of the army had been raised an inch, which meant reducing the available sources of the supply of recruits by a very large number, the fact was that the strength of the army had been greatly increased. An advantage of the present system was that now, for the first time, commanding officers had the power of rejecting men that offered themselves for re-engagement. The hon. Member for Chatham (Mr. Otway) had complained that our troops were so scattered in the colonies that we could only put 40,000 men in line. He supposed the hon. Member must include Ireland among the colonies, for he had made no allusion to the 20,000 troops stationed there. He agreed with the hon. Gentleman that the defence of the long line of Canadian frontier was difficult; but how SIR CHARLES RUSSELL said, he could we with any dignity withdraw our would not at that hour attempt to follow troops from Canada? As to the extrain detail the hon. Gentleman who had ordinary arrangement suggested by the just sat down (Mr. Otway) through his hon. Member at Malta, he was at a loss to various statements; but would merely re- know why marines should not suffer as mark that every friend and foe of the much from lassitude there as Line soldiers. army were agreed that the expenditure The hon. Member seemed to think there was too much, and would be exceedingly was no drill ground in Malta; but he glad to see it reduced. The hon. Mem- could assure him that there was an exher said we had the smallest standing cellent drill ground there, and that he had nation that professed to keep often been drilled on it till he was very Arcy of any one, and the hon. Gentleman now proposed tired indeed. With regard to the morits efficiency by reducing it by tality at the Mauritius, he had passed to increase The hon. Gentleman had en- fourteen months there, and a more beauti2,758 men. the intricacies of the double ful and, at ordinary times, a healthier Larged upon The fever there was, of course, much to be deplored; but the island could not be defended by naval

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the number of Land Forces, not exceed ing 185.933 Men (including 9,880, all Ranks, to be employed with the Depôts in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland of Regiments Serving in Her Majesty's Indian Possessions), be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 1st day of April 1868 to the 31st day of March 1869, incluEre."-(Mr. Otway.)

Command, and, in fact, had entered into island he had never seen.
of the re-organization of the
a matter which was

the

question

War Department

means, for it was surrounded by coral Quartermasters. He congratulated the reefs, and ships of war could not lie off the right hon. and gallant Member (General island. Moreover, the Isle of Bourbon, Peel) on the great success of the extra 2d. close at hand, was garrisoned by a French per day in procuring men for the army. It force, which might at any moment make a appeared from the statement of the right descent upon the Mauritius. The substi- hon. Baronet that more men had re-engaged tution of black troops there and elsewhere last year than in the preceding five years. would be no economy; for the cost of a It had been stated, with truth, that not regiment was within a few pounds that more than 40,000 men could be set in line of an English regiment, and the black in this country; and his hon. Friend (Mr. troops died off as rapidly as white troops. | Otway), looking at the number of troops The proposal of the hon. Gentleman would employed in the colonies, wished to reeffect an inconsiderable saving, and, as it duce the Vote for that service. Such a would reduce the strength of the army by proposal opened up a grave question, which 2,700 men, he hoped the hon. Member was probably of too much importance to would not put the Committee to the be dealt with incidentally in Committee. trouble of dividing. If we were to increase our effective force it must be done by making the colonies pay for their own troops. It was an extraordinary thing that some colonies paid so largely for the number they had in comparison with the payments made by other colonies. He did not see how our interests could be served by our maintaining 12,000 men in Canada. The military courage of the Canadians would be more readily developed if we did not allow it to remain dormant by quartering our troops in the colony.

CAPTAIN VIVIAN said, the right hon. Gentleman had referred to him in the course of his speech as if he had stated that the British army cost £15,000,000. He was aware, however, that there was a sum of £2,000,000 under the head of repayments, which the Government would be recouped, and which reduced the army expenditure to £13,000,000. He believed that the public were led into error by these figures, and that they thought our army cost the extravagant sum of £130 per man. Many items were not fairly chargeable upon the army. For instance, as had been pointed out, there was the item of warlike stores for the navy, though this was, perhaps, balanced by the transport furnished for the army by the sister service. On this point he suggested whether it would not be a good plan to set up a system of army transport for the army alone, quite independent of the navy. Deducting all the items which were not fairly chargeable against the regular forces, there only remained £11,750,000, or £86 per man; and this comprised food, clothing, arms, equipment, horses, and the pay of every single person connected with the army, from the right hon. Baronet downwards. He was glad to hear the improvements proposed in the Militia, which was the real constitutional force of Reserve to which we must look. It would be well that this force should be brought into closer relations with the regular army; and if it were placed in barracks when called out, that would be a great advantage, for discipline and morality could never be maintained under the system of billeting. Militia officers ought to receive greater encouragement, and he was much gratified at hearing that something was about to be done for that ill-used class of Militia officers, the

secure

COLONEL PERCY HERBERT said, that from his own knowledge and experience he should strongly deprecate the transfer from the navy to a military department of the transport of troops. In time of war it would be impossible to troops a proper safeguard during passage unless the arrangements were in the hands of the officer in charge of the naval force on the station. He was glad that notice had been taken of the remarks made about military agents; for it would be unjust to let it go forth that the very respectable firms and gentlemen who acted as agents for the different regiments did nothing for the £48,000 except carry on a traffic in commissions. They had responsible duties, and discharged them efficiently, and, although that might be done by a public Department, as it had been proposed they should, it had generally been considered that it was more economical to leave them to the agents. With regard to the force in the Mauritius, it was one thing to have it reduced by sickness in time of peace, and another to reduce it permanently by one-half. The French had much the same garrison at Bourbon that we had at the Mauritius, which island was assailable at two points, where it could be defended by 2,000 men. There were only two