harbours in the island; the smaller could be defended by 300 or 400 men, and the main harbour could be equally well defended by 1,500 men, with suitable fortifications. Therefore, granted that it was expedient to defend the Mauritius, the garrison was not altogether useless nor insufficient. It might require to be increased in time of war, but it was strong enough in time of peace. If it were not held by such a garrison, and were consequently lost, it would require a considerable number of troops and ships to re-take it. He had heard it stated that during the old wars with France £15,000,000 worth of property was captured by cruizers and privateers issuing from the Mauritius. Our commerce had enormously increased since then; and where would be the economy of saving £200,000 a year, and then re-taking the island, with a diversion of force which might be inconvenient, and at a very considerable expense, in order to prevent far greater loss being inflicted on our commerce?

other evening the statement of his right hon. Friend the Under Secretary for the Colonies, that the last remaining regiment was to be withdrawn from New Zealand. It happened to be his duty to propose to the House the arrangements which led to this; andhe was glad the Ministers and Assembly of New Zealand had not elected the alternative offered to them of paying for the troops, but had decided upon their withdrawal. He was glad that the present Government were following the policy of their predecessors in this respect. In the course of last Session they were told the same view was being carried into effect by the present Government in regard to the Cape of Good Hope, and he cheerfully supported the policy, although no doubt at the Cape it must be pursued with caution and prudence. At the same time he hoped that the policy which had been firmly commenced, would be steadily and continuously adhered to. The question had been raised, whether we could not dispense with white troops in some colonies by substituting troops of a different race, not, he hoped, as a charge upon the Estimates of this country. He agreed with the hon. and gallant Officer opposite that if you wanted a service to be performed you would get it in the main performed more efficiently and cheaply by the employment of British troops; but the principle for which he wished to contend was that we should steadily go forward, declaring to the colonies that it is beyond our intention, as it is beyond our power, to furnish the men by whom they are to be defended. He said this on other than merely pecuniary grounds. Much was said about sanitary reforms and moral reforms that were to accompany our new system of recruiting, and to attract a higher class of men to the service; but if these things were to be done we must put an end to the plan of maintaining at one time 50,000 men in our colonial dependencies. For these reasons we must pursue, steadily and without check, the policy upon which we had entered. He felt convinced that MR. CARDWELL said, that an impor- the object of his hon. Friend the Member tant question had been raised-the em- for Chatham (Mr. Otway) was not to ployment of British troops in our distant diminish the British Army, but to bring colonial possessions, which absorbed 50,000 it up to a higher point of efficiency, and men. It was satisfactory that, since the Report of the Committee of 1862, continuous and considerable progress had been made in giving effect to the policy, which the House meant to pursue on this subject. He had heard with pleasure the

MR. BARCLAY said, that having resided two years in the Mauritius, he was able to affirm that the reduction of the garrison to 1,000 men would be most pleasing to the colonists, and would be a most acceptable relief to them. Personally, he thought the reduction might be made with safety, if the health of the remaining regiment were promoted by removing it from the town of Port Louis to a site already selected in a district of the island that was more salubrious. When privateers issued from the Mauritius, the island was self-supporting; but now, owing to the great cultivation of sugar, and increased population, the inhabitants depended for their subsistence upon the importation of rice from India; and, therefore the possession of the island depended entirely on maritime supremacy. The insalubrity of the island had been greatly exaggerated. A British regiment might be kept there with safety, and alone, or with a Sikh regiment, it would be sufficient for defence.

he hoped that the reply of the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for War would render it unnecessary for his hon. Friend to go to a division.

MAJOR ANSON cordially concurred in what had fallen from the hon. Member for

Chatham with regard to the military | hausted and they would have to rely on expenditure for the colonies, and thought new manufactures. With regard to the that the House should insist upon having armament of the Militia, he had to oba clear statement of the money which the serve that there were not sufficient breechcolonists cost the mother country. The loading arms in store to provide the Militia accounts were at present not worth the with weapons of that description. A cerpaper they were written on. There was tain number of Militia regiments would also an absence of information as to the be sent this year, as during last year, to money value of our stores both at home Aldershot, and all those would be proand in the colonies. vided with breech-loading arms, but a greater number could not be furnished this year with breech-loaders. In fact, all the regiments of the Line were not at present armed with them. The regiments

the new arms, but the regiments previously quartered in India were not yet furnished with them. In reference to what had fallen from the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton), he repeated that the four branches of the reserved force, instead of being as now under the superintendence of three officers of inferior rank, would be placed under one officer of much higher rank. His hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Oxfordshire (Colonel North) had fallen into a serious mistake as to what he had said on the subject of training boys or young men for the army in any schools which might be established. It seemed to be the impression of the hon. and gallant Member that these boys would be at once turned out as non-commissioned officers. He had no intention of conveying such an idea, although he had alluded to a recommendation on that subject contained in the Report of the Commissioners. He entertained a sanguine hope, however, that by altering the constitution of Chelsea School and of the Hibernian School in Ireland, those two great establishments would be enabled to contribute well-educated and well-trained boys and young men to the army. All he had intended to say was that if a number of these well-trained

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON, in reply, said, he must express his thanks and his satisfaction at the general tone of the remarks with which his Statement had been received. In reference to some observa-sent of late to India were provided with tions made by the noble Marquess the Member for North Lancashire (the Marquess of Hartington), he begged to assure the noble Marquess that when he stated that no guns were provided for the fortifications earlier than last year he had no intention to impute blame to the late Government. Indeed, he agreed with the right hon. and gallant Member for Hunt ingdon (General Peel) that, considering the progress which had been made in the manufacture of artillery, it was fortunate that a large expenditure had not been previously incurred in furnishing guns for the fortifications. In reply to the question which had been asked as to the intentions of the Government with regard to the two branches of the new Army of Reserve, as proposed by the right hon. and gallant Member for Huntingdon last year, he observed that he thought he had made it clear that he fully intended to adopt the plan proposed by that right hon. Gentleman of forming an Army of Reserve out of the Line by giving an increased amount of bounty to the Militia, and raising the Militia to a full quota. He had also intended to say that the scheme contemplated leaving it open to soldiers to commute the latter part of their service in the Line for a certain amount of service in the Army of Reserve. He did not an-young men joined the army every year, ticipate that any large number of men would be derived in that way; but in order to carry out the plan it was necessary that regulations should be drawn up, which, after General Lindsay was consulted with respect to them, would be laid on the table of the House. Surprise had been expressed that so few small arms had been converted. He had to state that it was intended to convert 160,000 in the course of the year. The conversion would cost 38. each, and when these had been converted their whole stock would be ex

they would form a valuable class from whom non-commissioned officers might be selected. The hon. Member for Chatham had made some remarks respecting the unnecessary extent of the War Office establishment. That was one of the points which were now being investigated, and he was ready to confess that in his opinion the establishment might be beneficially reduced, both in regard to numbers and expense. He therefore did not feel disposed to express dissent from the remarks of the hon. Gentleman. Great complaints

that the cost of maintaining them should devolve on the local authorities. In the latter event a fresh burden would be imposed on those islands, which had suffered so immensely for years past; and to show the inexpediency of withdrawing the troops it was only necessary to refer to what occurred in Jamaica two years and a half ago.

had also been made respecting the extent of the Staff in some of our colonial establishments, and here again he was not disposed to defend the existing state of things; for he believed that, in some cases, the Staff was larger than was necessary. He would now turn for a moment to the Motion of the hon. Gentleman, which he trusted would not be pressed to a division. The number of men in the West Indies and SIR JOHN PAKINGTON said, that with the Mauritius was smaller than it had reference to the Question of the hon. and been for several years, and the Govern- gallant Member for Dungannon (Colonel ment would not feel themselves justified Stuart Knox), at present he had no intenin proposing any reduction. The hon. tion of proposing any change with regard Member had represented him as saying to quartermasters' pensions in Ireland. He that the establishment in the Mauritius was not able at that moment to reply to had undergone a considerable reduction, the Question of the noble Lord the Membut this was not the correct way of ber for Haddingtonshire (Lord Elcho) as stating the case. What he said was that to the number of arms that had been conlast year, owing to the pressure of a great verted. With reference to the supply of calamity and to a dreadful amount of sick-trained boys, he was sanguine enough to ness prevailing in the island, discretionary believe that he should be able to procure powers to remove a portion of the troops them without great expense. were given to the commanding officer there. He did not think, however, that as a matter of public policy it was desirable to reduce the number of battalions in that island. The policy of the present -as of the last Government is to endeavour to make the colonies bear a fair share of the expenses of the military establishments kept up in them. In conclusion, he appealed to the hon. Gentleman not to press his Motion to a division. COLONEL STUART KNOX said, he wished to ask the right hon. Baronet, Whether he had taken into consideration the subject of granting pensions to the Quartermasters in the Militia in Ireland? There were, he believed, two quartermasters in Ireland who had been between fifty and sixty years in the service, and who could not retire because they would not be entitled to pensions. Thus the service was burdened with men who could not efficiently discharge their duty. In justice to them something ought to be done. He might add that their actual income was only £115 a year, including lodging money.

LORD ELCHO said, he would beg to ask the right hon. Baronet, Whether he could state to the Committee the exact number of arms which had been converted up to the present date; and, also, what the cost of each of the boys to whom the right hon. Baronet alluded was to be?

MR. H. E. SURTEES said, he was not sure whether the hon. Member for Chatham (Mr. Otway) wished that the troops should be removed from the West Indies, or merely VOL. CXCI. [THIRD SERIES.]

MR. OTWAY concurred in the desirableness of withdrawing the Amendment; but nothing that he had heard had at all altered his opinion as to the propriety of withdrawing our troops from the colonial out-stations, which now absorbed so great a number of them. It seemed to be a singularly difficult thing to make any reduction in the Estimates. At first he attempted to reduce the amount of expenditure, and to-night he attempted to reduce the number of men. But he could see the force of his right hon. Friend the Member for Oxfordshire's objection to a reduction of the number of men, and under these circumstances he did not think it would be right to put the Committee to the trouble of dividing.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

Original Question put, and agreed to. 2. 880 Native Indian Troops. 3. £4,249,200, Pay and Allowances, Land Forces, at Home and Abroad. 4. £892,500, Commissariat Establishment, &c.

MR. OTWAY hoped the right hon. Baronet would now report Progress, as he believed the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Major Anson) had something to say on this Vote.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK moved, that the Chairman report Progress.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow;
Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.

E

Order for Committee read.

MR. KINNAIRD said, that this was probably the last opportunity which the Scotch Members would have of learning from the Government whether they in tended to go into Committee upon the Bill before Easter. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had, in his Irish Reform Bill, departed from one of his cardinal principles-that of no disfran

representatives a great deal of trouble if the right hon. Gentleman would state whether he would carry out this principle of no disfranchisement in the case of the Scotch measure, and give Scotland increased representation in the manner specified in the Instruction of the hon. Member for Montrose. He should like to hear the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman upon the subject.

COLONEL STUART KNOX said, it was the factious opposition of hon. Gentlemen opposite which had prevented the right hon. Gentleman bringing forward this occasion, however, the hon. Member had been justly rewarded by seeing the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Lancashire (Mr. Gladstone) postponed, it being now later than halfpast twelve, after which time the right

the Scotch and Irish Reform Bills. On

hon. Member had said that he would not propose its third reading.

Committee deferred till Monday, 20th
April.

REGISTRATION OF WRITS (SCOTLAND)
BILL. (Lords.) [BILL 62.]

COMPULSORY CHURCH RATES ABOLI

TION BILL-[BILL 72].

(Mr. Gladstone, Sir George Grey, Sir R. Palmer.)

THIRD READING.

Order for Third Reading read.

MR. GLADSTONE said, that an engagement had been entered into not to press the Motion after half-past twelve. The hon. Gentleman the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate), who was in his place, would, he presumed, object to its being proceeded with, in which case he would fix it for to-morrow.

MR. NEWDEGATE objected to the Bill being pressed, as it had only been delivered that morning.

THE O'CONOR DON then moved the adjournment of the House.

Whereupon Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn."(The O'Conor Don.)

MR. VANCE said, he would not put the House to the trouble of another division; but would postpone his Motion until

to-morrow.

Motion and Original Question, by leave, withdrawn.

PERTH AND BRECHIN PROVISIONAL ORDERS
CONFIRMATION BILL.

On Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE, Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders under "The General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Act,

Third Reading deferred till To-morrow. 1862," relating to the burghs of Perth and Bre

GRAND JURY PRESENTMENTS

(IRELAND).

NOMINATION OF SELECT COMMITTEE.

chin, ordered to be brought in by The LORD ADVOCATE, Mr. Secretary GATHORNE HARDY, and Sir JAMES FERGUSSON.

Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 74.]

BILL.

MR. VANCE moved the addition of the PETTY SESSIONS AND LOCK-UP HOUSES, &c. names of Mr. Agar-Ellis and Captain Archdall to the Committee of seventeen already nominated upon the above question. He did so on the ground that Ulster had not been properly represented on it.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Select Committee on Grand Jury Presentments do consist of Nineteen Members."-(Mr. Vance.)

COLONEL STUART KNOX, as an Amendment, moved to substitute the name of Mr. Vance for Sir John Gray, on the ground that the North of Ireland was not sufficiently represented on the Committee.

THE O'COÑOR DON opposed the enlargement of the Committee to nineteen Members, believing that it was already inconveniently large. He had selected the names of the Committee with great care, and they had met the approval of the noble Earl the Chief Secretary for Ireland and the Members for the County of Dublin.

MR. VANCE hoped, that one of the names, at all events, he proposed would be assented to by the hon. Gentleman.

SIR JOHN GRAY moved the adjournment of the debate.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned. - (Sir John Gray.)

On Motion of Sir JAMES FERGUSSON, Bill to amend the Law relating to places for holding Petty Sessions and Lock-up Houses, &c., ordered to be brought in by Sir JAMES FERGUSSON, and Mr. Secretary GATHORNE HARDY. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 75.] House adjourned at One o'clock.

QUESTION.

LORD REDESDALE wished to ask, Whether any Arrangements have been made for proceeding in the present Year with the Buildings for Public Offices on the vacant Ground adjoining Downing Street; and, whether Plans have been prepared for the Occupation of the Ground in Parliament and King Streets (for the Purchase of which Powers have been ob

The House divided:-Ayes 17; Noes tained from Parliament) by Buildings in

18: Majority 1.

Original Question again proposed.

connection with those already proposed or otherwise, or for the Completion of the