without any subversive agents from any other institutions directing our activities in that respect, I assure you the CIO took its position on an independent basis, and that there were no agents of any other organization that helped us in the preparation of this statement that I presented to you here today.

Senator DONNELL. The statement was prepared by you?

Mr. CAREY. By James B. Carey.

Senator DONNELL. Personally?

Mr. CAREY. Personally, and without any assistance from any of the people you named when you raised questions with the previous witness.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Carey, I want to ask you-you are familiar with the fact that there was a conference on labor research held on December 10 and December 11 of last year, and that a publication has occurred by the Federal Security Agency, and Social Security Administration, Bureau of Research and Statistics, which was presided over by Mr. Falk, and that that conference was attended by union representatives representing some 37 unions. You recall that; do you not? Mr. CAREY. I have heard of that.

Senator DONNELL. For instance, Miss Katherine Elickson, who, I think, is your assistant director of research, CIO?

Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Has she been in attendance at these hearings right along; do you know?

Mr. CAREY. I do not know. I do not believe so.

Senator DONNELL. This is the first time she has come?

Mr. CAREY. I do not know. I returned on Monday of this week. Senator DONNELL. That is not material, but she is here this morning and she was present at the research conference conducted under the auspices of the Bureau of Research and Statistics, over which Mr. Falk presided?

Mr. CAREY. May I ask you a basic question? Merely because that conference expressed some of the business views contained in the resolution adopted by the CIO, that does not mean that Katherine Elickson, representing the CIO, imposed the judgment of the CIO on that conference.

Senator DONNELL. I did not mean to leave any such impression at all. In fact, this conference was presided over by Mr. Falk-Chairman I. S. Falk-who opened the conference and made extensive statements from time to time, including one with respect to the WagnerMurray-Dingell bill and the Taft bill, part of which reads in this way: I want to take only a minute or two to draw certain contrasts between the two major pieces of legislation, the Wagner-Murray-Dingell bill and the Taft bill. As against the Wagner-Murray-Dingell bill as contributory insurance, the Taft bill approaches the problem of providing medical care through selective public charity

and so forth.

By the way, I pause to refer to that "contributory insurance taxation." You regard that as a matter of contribution or as a matter of law and compulsion?

Mr. CAREY. Taxation?

Senator DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. CAREY. I think even Republicans ought to pay income taxes and other taxes during a Democratic administration.

Senator DONNELL. I think so. You do not regard taxation laws as a matter of contribution, do you?

Mr. CAREY. It is contributions but some people can do it voluntarily, but those that do not care to do it in a voluntary manner ought to be required to do it.

Senator DONNELL. But at any rate, taxation as imposed by law? Mr. CAREY. That is correct, sir.

Senator DONNELL. At this meeting held, over which Mr. Falk presided, and in which he made these observations-others that I shall not take the time to read-there was present Henry Bookbinder, assistant director of research, Amalgamated Clothing Workers, CIO, is he not?

Mr. CAREY. I believe he is; I am not certain:

Senator DONNELL. Well, you know Mr. Bookbinder, do you not? Mr. CAREY. Not too well. The Amalgamated Clothing Workers are part of the CIO.

Senator DONNELL. I will ask you-do you know whether Miss Elickson was there?

Mr. CAREY. I suppose she was there. If she was not, she should have been. I will say that.

Senator DONNELL. I have a number of other persons that are listed as having been there: Miss Diana Farnham, United Office and Professional Workers of America; Mr. William Glasser, International Longshoremen and Warehousemen's Union. CIO; Mr. Godwin, United Automobile Workers, CIO; Mr. Clayton E. Johnson, director of unemployment compensation department, United Automobile Workers, CIO; Miss Eleanor Kahn, research analyst; L. E. Caslo, research director, Rubber, Linoleum, and Plastic Workers, CIO; Miss Ailene Link, research associates, American Federation of Hosiery Workers, CIO; Miss Esther Peterson, whom I know and who was here in the room, and now is legislative representative of the Amalgamated Clothing Workers, CIO; Mr. R. Shulman, research director, Marine Shipbuilding Workers, CIO; Miss Jean Weinstein, director, American Newspaper Guild, CIO; Mabel M. Weir, research director, Oil Workers International Union; A. L. Wuidaman, office of the president, United Automobile Workers, CIO.

Those are all listed as having been present at that meeting, and I assume the listing is correct.

Senator MURRAY. Miss Peterson is not in the room now.

Senator DONNELL. She was. I saw her a while ago. We will have the record clear. No objection to that.

Now, Mr. Carey, just one further question: Have you made any examination as to what expenses will be incurred after the year 1955 under S. 1320?

Mr. CAREY. No, sir.

Senator DONNELL. You referred to certain limitations in the bill in the early years of its operation. You have not made any study of it, have you?

Mr. CAREY. I said after a period of time. I think I specified about 6 years, Congress-and I say "Congress"-can give consideration to extending and taking care of other-taking other steps to extend the services to be rendered to the people of this country in the light of their experience. I am not using exact words, but the general notion. But, frankly, I would think that was a little too far to look forward to at this time, because the bill has not yet been enacted.

Senator DONNELL. That is the point I am getting at, that you are not able at this time to say what would be your estimate at all as to the ultimate expenditures under this bill after, say, 7 or 8 years of elapsed time.

Mr. CAREY. I would not say that, Senator.

Senator DONNELL. Can you give us an estimate, then, at this time, of what it would be?

Mr. CAREY. I think the expenditures will be reasonably in keeping with the services that will be rendered.

Senator DONNELL. Do you have any idea how much?

Mr. CAREY. I have confidence in the American Government and I think it will be within reason. I think the people, if they are not satisfied, will express themselves just as they have now expressed themselves as being in support of S. 1320, and would like to have an opportunity of reviewing it 6 years following its adoption.

Senator DONNELL. You say the people of this country have expressed themselves in favor of S. 1320?

Mr. CAREY. I think so.

Senator DONNELL. On what do you base that conclusion?

Mr. CAREY. On the unanimity within the ranks of labor.

Senator DONNELL. I am talking about, generally speaking, the people of the United States. Have you seen any poll on that subject? Do you know of a poll being taken on it?

Mr. CAREY. As you will recall, Senator, I might point out now because I am concerned that you might think this policy is not our own, it is. I think the people that attended those meetings indicated the interest and the interest of the people they represent in this case. You will recall the testimony that I presented to your committee a little over a year ago, and we discussed that question of poll. Could we save time by just inserting in the record of this committee the same condition we had regarding polls, its meaning and its purposes?

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Chairman, I may say the witness is not really a member of this committee, and we will probably determine what should go into this record. I am asking if you have taken any poll-I will ask it that way-as to the people

Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Let me complete my question-as to the opinion of the people of the United States on the subject of S. 1320? Have you taken any poll, or have you seen any poll on that question? Mr. CAREY. No, sir.

Senator DONNELL. That is all.

Mr. CAREY. And I would like to add to that answer that in the rank of the people I represent, discussion has taken place on the provisions of Senate bill 1320. We find they are overwhelmingly in support of S. 1320 and overwhelmingly in opposition to the provisions in 545, and there is no opposition whatsoever within our ranks to that position. It is unusual, I admit, but it indicates, I think, the overwhelming interest in this question, and also the solidarity of the thinking of the people on this subject.

Senator DONNELL. The CIO has 6,000,000 members, has it not? Mr. CAREY. It has 6,338,000 dues-paying members, but I use the term 6,000,000 members because I do not think it is very significant whether it is 6,000,000 or 6,338,000.

Senator DONNELL. Has there been a poll taken of those members? Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. When was that poll taken?

Mr. CAREY. The poll was conducted in the orderly processes of our organization. I mention in my testimony, in the national convention of the CIO, and the national convention of the affiliated organizations and the State organizations and in the committee organizations and in the local union bodies and in the district council; I am trying to anticipate your question as to whether or not we sent out post cards. My answer is "No."

Senator DONNELL. In other words, there has been no poll of each of the individual 6,338,000 members of your union as to their opinion on S. 1320? That is correct, is it not?

Mr. CAREY. In our processes we consider that is the way of telling their opinion, by having it from the local union.

Senator DONNELL. I might just ask you again: Has there been anything sent directly to each of the 6,338,000 people?

Mr. CAREY. No, sir.

Senator DONNELL. That is all.

Senator SMITH. I might remind the subcommittee that this witness would like to get a certain plane, at what time?

Mr. CAREY. At 1:40.

Senator MURRAY. I would like to ask just a few questions.

Mr. CAREY. I will be delighted to return at some other time, at the need of the committee.

Senator MURRAY. We appreciate that but I hope it will not be necessary to bring you back here again.

ou feel that if this bill is put into operation there will be eventually a great improvement in the health of the American people? Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir.

Senator MURRAY. And that, in turn, would tend to decrease the cost of the operation of the plan?

Mr. CAREY. Yes, sir.

Senator MURRAY. It would result also in a great increase in the members of the medical profession?

Mr. CAREY. It would result in an increase.

Senator MURRAY. And in nurses. So that, as a result of the combined operation of the bill, the health of the Nation would be greatly advanced, and thereby the cost of the complete operation of the bill would be greatly reduced?

Mr. CAREY. May I add on the other side, there would be a tremendous saving in what can now be considered a wasteful method of operation, measured in terms of loss of production by illness and other things.

Senator MURRAY. I put into the record here, the other day, statistics showing the great losses that this country suffers as a result of ill health. Industry, for instance, annually loses many millions of dollars as the result of ill health of its workers. Improvement in that connection would be a great advantage to business and industry in this country?

Mr. CARFY. Yes; it would.

Senator MURRAY. There being great need for a program of this kind, you feel that the working out of the provisions of the bill is

something for experts to do, not for the witnesses that come here to tell us about the actual conditions in the country with reference to the need? For instance we have had heretofore people come from way out in the agricultural sections of the Nation to tell us about the failure properly to distribute medical care in those sections of the country. The same kind of witnesses have come here from the South. You do not feel that those witnesses should be the ones to lay out a blueprint for the American people? That is something that should be done by the Congress when the problem is laid before the Congress? It is the duty of Congress to work out a bill here that will accomplish the purposes that the people of this country demand?

Mr. CAREY. Correct.

Senator MURRAY. And that is all we are trying to do here. But we have had other witnesses testifying on this line-for instance, we had Dr. Parran here yesterday and he explained in some detail how this bill would be put into operation, how the different steps would be staggered so that we would finally get into complete, harmonious operation, and that is a problem, as I say, for experts. But you came here to tell us about the need from the standpoint of American workers, and you feel that the American workers are a unit on this proposition that we need some compulsion system of financing medical care in this country?

Mr. CAREY. And I say not only the workers, but I may say I have seven sisters and three brothers, all of them married, living in Senator Smith's State, and they too, as well as the members of the CIO, and their dependents as well, feel that way about it.

Senator MURRAY. S. 545 has been talked about here. It provides an appropriation of $200,000,000, to be duplicated by the States. If that sum of $200,000,000 was fully duplicated by the States, it would not go very far in meeting the needs of the country, would it?

Mr. CAREY. No, sir; and it would not be immediate. There would be some delay in the terms of the application.

Senator MURRAY. In order to get the care that that bill would undercake to provide, a person would have to sign an affidavit, or submit proof he was a pauper or was unable to pay for some reason or another? Mr. CAREY. That is as I read the bill. That is my understanding. Senator SMITH. It is not quite that. That is not provided in the Dill.

Senator MURRAY. I am glad to be corrected. The bill provides hat the people who are not able to pay――

Mr. CAREY. In whole or in part.

Senator SMITH. You have got the two questions presented: Whether you are going to have an over-all coverage under which everybody gets free medical care, even without paying the tax, or whether to et those pay that can pay and take care of the other people that cannot. That is another approach.

Senator MURRAY. Under S. 545 the people that get medical care do not have to pay anything. It is completely a Government program. Senator SMITH. No; they have to pay-it provides that they pay part or all.

Mr. CAREY. No; they would pay for it, but not directly.

Senator MURRAY. Well, if that bill were carried fully into effect and expanded and we should undertake to have it applied to the